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Did Gordon Brown save the world?



Robbie G

New member
Jul 26, 2004
1,771
Hassocks
Absolute nonsense. Raids on pension funds, massive expansion of the public sector at the expense of the entrepreneurial private sector where wealth and prosperity are really made. He's the one that has saddled us with the largest national and personal debt levels ever. He and Ed Balls are the ones that presided over the regulation of the financial services in the UK which allowed banks like Northern Rock to get into so much sh*t. He's as guilty as any American sub-prime lender if not more so.

Shite chancellor, shite PM.

I can't see how it has caused the economic downturn. Of course some aspects have made it worse, e.g. the public debt. But as I see it, you can't blame the government for Northern Rock offering 125% mortgages, or offering sub-prime mortgages. If Northern Rock hadn't offered such risky investments, then they wouldn't be in the situation they are now. That's not the government's fault for not regulating, that's Northern Rock's stupidity.

I don't believe that the VAT cuts will do much in the way of boosting consumer demand.
 




Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
Repeat, I am not a Brown supporter

Really? Care to explain this then:

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?p=2470116&highlight=brown#post2470116

I like him, and I don't believe for one second that the Conservatives or Liberals have any clue what they would do in Labour's place except royally f*** this country up and plunge us into the worst recession ever known.

What Brown is bad at, is answering back to the 'spin' that the tories have been building against him.


https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?p=2208241&highlight=brown#post2208241

Last time a PM stepped down early doors, we got Majors!

Brown is way better than that, and way better than that tory plum cameron.
He's a RIGHT twat! You'd have to be an American to vote for cameron - they voted Bush in!

But my very favourite is this:

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?p=2169299&highlight=brown#post2169299

Representing The British People;

Public opinion has long been against the US's war on Iraq, and desirous of a withdrawing of our troops from that ill-conceived 'theatre'.
Iraqi heads have also strongly suggested that we encourage insurgency, and others say we are there acting simply as a target.

Brown visits Iraq, we will be now withdrawing troops from there.

Brown hints that he will be including the tory bench and the tory voters in labour policies. The labour party are not just 'playing to the orchestra' with singular, non-inclusive policies.
A direct and full underlining of that, is by his activating a policy that the tories, themselves, tabled. An answer to tory criticism - how can they criticise THAT?

Only been PM for a couple of months and showing his hands with decisiveness and aplomb.


The man is a genius! A real representative of the people, Gordon Brown could even turn out to be the greatest political leader we will have ever had!



:falmerspi <----- Bozza, please amend this to "WE WANT BROWN / LABOUR YES"


:braders: <------- amend this to "PRIME TORY BEEF"


Oh dear. Oh deary dear.
 




Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
I can't see how it has caused the economic downturn. Of course some aspects have made it worse, e.g. the public debt. But as I see it, you can't blame the government for Northern Rock offering 125% mortgages, or offering sub-prime mortgages. If Northern Rock hadn't offered such risky investments, then they wouldn't be in the situation they are now. That's not the government's fault for not regulating, that's Northern Rock's stupidity.

I don't believe that the VAT cuts will do much in the way of boosting consumer demand.

Hang on. Rewind a minute. Excluding Northern Rock, public debt is at it's largest EVER level. That's Brown's fault. He's saved not one penny for a rainy day. Not one. And very little has gone into capital investment. It's gone into public sector pay and PPP/PFI initiatives which have saddled Britain with HUGE debts and it's not even on the balance sheet of UK Plc.

And who exactly was in charge of regulating the banks during the time Northern Rock diversified its business into the sub-prime market?

Have a read of what the economist, Irwin Stelzer, has to say on whose fault it is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...don-Brown-must-blame-himself-not-the-USA.html

"...None of this is to deny that developments in an economy as large as America's have an impact on its trading partners and other countries. Or that America's bankers mismanaged risk. But it remains an incontestable fact that the Prime Minister is pointing a finger at America to conceal his mishandling of the British economy and, lately, the futility of some portions of the stimulus package he has crafted. Gordon Brown's search for a villain might better take him to the nearest mirror than to Washington, DC"

(My highlighting)
 


Gosh, that's blown my arguments out of the water. Tsk, what was I thinking. Of course Keynesian economics is the answer.

The last time Britain was truly, truly in this kind of mess, when Healey went cap in hand to the IMF, the then Prime Minister Callaghan said the following:

`We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.'
Prime minister James Callaghan, Labour Party conference speech 1976.


And you know what? He was right. It's a proven failure. So come on LB. Care to offer a little more of a critique into why it's the panacea you claim?
I'm still trying to digest your "Callaghan was right" message, which, to be honest, seems a very strange way to be spinning this argument.

Callaghan, of course, lived in Ringmer. And Healey lives in Alfriston. Close, but not close enough.
 




Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
I'm still trying to digest your "Callaghan was right" message, which, to be honest, seems a very strange way to be spinning this argument.

What? That Callaghan rejected Keynesian economics? Yes, I can understand why that would be hard to comprehend to someone who is so tied to the theory even though it's been tried and it failed. I'm not sayng that Callaghan had the foggiest what the answer was but he knew a dead duck when he saw one.

So....this Keynesian model that "quite simply"...."is just right"...conviction of yours. Care to elaborate or do you think that suffices? Here's me just "spinning" it with quotes from economists and politicians and trying to back it up with some empiricism.
 




I like Brown in his policies, fact.
He is trying to do something, to get Britain out of the mire asap and/or keep us above water while the shit has been hitting fan. in my opinion, that's worthy and shows WAY more than the constantly mudslinging tories have done - if they even HAVE a best foot to put forward, all they've done is try hiding it in Brown's trousers - and claim that any policy they cannot possibly refute was "theirs to begin with".

As an observer of what's going down here, I can only say that Brown is DOING, not spurting waste-of-energy vitriol at the tory turds.
My answers to previously-current debates have been given, as you've quoted.

I didn't vote for him or the labour party, and as far as I'm concerned the jury is always 'still out'. Everything is daily, pending approval or disapproval as things happen.

So no, I remain a spectator of this political leader ..... BUT I have an opinion when people spout CRAP and one-sided gobbledegook just repeating what their sorry-arsed representative gibbers off relentlessly.
I turn them off whenever and as soon as they start with the one-sided bullshit that says nothing but 'he's bad we're good vote us' ESPECIALLY when this country is along with the world in a recession.

All the time Brown and labour are trying to DO something about it - and I mean something more tangible than lining their own nests - then that does appear to be what they were hired to do for people here.

Will I like Obama, in the country where I lived most of my voting life?
Don't know yet, I will watch and see what happens - but I may voice my approval or disapproval along the way.

If Cameron ever says anything worth my approving of, I'll probably let you know. Don't hold your breath.
 


Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
I like Brown in his policies, fact.
He is trying to do something, to get Britain out of the mire asap and/or keep us above water while the shit has been hitting fan. in my opinion, that's worthy and shows WAY more than the constantly mudslinging tories have done - if they even HAVE a best foot to put forward, all they've done is try hiding it in Brown's trousers - and claim that any policy they cannot possibly refute was "theirs to begin with".

As an observer of what's going down here, I can only say that Brown is DOING, not spurting waste-of-energy vitriol at the tory turds.
My answers to previously-current debates have been given, as you've quoted.

I didn't vote for him or the labour party, and as far as I'm concerned the jury is always 'still out'. Everything is daily, pending approval or disapproval as things happen.

So no, I remain a spectator of this political leader ..... BUT I have an opinion when people spout CRAP and one-sided gobbledegook just repeating what their sorry-arsed representative gibbers off relentlessly.
I turn them off whenever and as soon as they start with the one-sided bullshit that says nothing but 'he's bad we're good vote us' ESPECIALLY when this country is along with the world in a recession.

All the time Brown and labour are trying to DO something about it - and I mean something more tangible than lining their own nests - then that does appear to be what they were hired to do for people here.

Will I like Obama, in the country where I lived most of my voting life?
Don't know yet, I will watch and see what happens - but I may voice my approval or disapproval along the way.

If Cameron ever says anything worth my approving of, I'll probably let you know. Don't hold your breath.

Oh, I see. When you said that you weren't a supporter of Brown, I immediately thought you meant policies. Turns out you DO like his policies and you're not a supporter of Brown in some other way.

Right......

What is it then? His dress sense? His accent? The way he parts his hair?
 




Oh, I see. When you said that you weren't a supporter of Brown, I immediately thought you meant policies. Turns out you DO like his policies and you're not a supporter of Brown in some other way.

Right......

What is it then? His dress sense? His accent? The way he parts his hair?


I take it you're enjpying yourself here.

LC
 




Sorry. I'm being a tad sarcastic. I've had a few beers at the Reservoir and should head off to bed. Apologies if I've offended anyone.

Good research old man, in cricketing terms I would say the day belonged to you?
 






I see another German politician has put the boot in today...

BBC NEWS | Business | Second attack on UK fiscal moves

A second German politician has broken with diplomatic convention and criticised the UK government's response to the economic downturn.

Steffen Kampeter, of Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU party, said moves to raise debt "were a failure of Labour policy".

He also denied that finance minister Peer Steinbruck's criticism of "crass" UK policies reflected internal German politics, as suggested by Gordon Brown.

Downing Street says Mrs Merkel supports the EU's fiscal stimulus package.

Mr Brown is with the German chancellor in Brussels where EU leaders are trying to agree proposals to inject 200bn euros (£177bn) into European economies to help deal with the downturn.

'Lecturing UK'

Mr Kampeter speaks on economic matters for the right-wing CDU, while Mr Steinbruck is from the Social Democrat Party. Both parties are part of the coalition government.

Mr Kampeter said: "Peer Steinbruck's comments have nothing whatsoever to do with internal German politics, as Prime Minister Brown has suggested. The tremendous amount of debt being offered by Britain shows a complete failure of Labour policy

Steffen Kampeter

"In questioning the British government's approach, Peer Steinbruck is exactly expressing the views of the German Grand Coalition.

"After years of lecturing us on how we need to share in the gains of uncontrolled financial markets, the Labour politicians can't now expect us to share in its losses.

"The tremendous amount of debt being offered by Britain shows a complete failure of Labour policy."

In a magazine interview, Mr Steinbruck had questioned Britain's decision to cut VAT and raise the national debt to record levels by following the high public spending model of economist John Maynard Keynes.

"The switch from decades of supply-side politics all the way to a crass Keynesianism is breathtaking," he said.

He later sought to play down his comments, saying: "There is no question of criticising our British friends. Nothing is further from our minds."

'Clear support'

Mr Brown had responded to the article by saying the German government had just announced a fiscal expansion so it could invest in public works.

He said: "I do not really want to get involved in what is clearly internal German politics here, because they have a coalition in Germany with different political parties."

The prime minister's official spokesman added: "Clearly there is a debate taking place in Germany about the nature of any additional fiscal stimulus measures.

"Chancellor Angela Merkel made it clear that she supports the EU fiscal stimulus package."


Yes Gordon, internal politics, that's why they're slagging you off. Does 'head in the sand' mean anything to you?

And to all those who continually trot out the line 'it's a global crisis'. If the crisis is so global, why is the UK expected to be worse hit than any other European country, or even the US?

Gordon Brown f*cked up with his excessive spending and no saving during the upturn, and is now f*cking up again with continued spending and continued accrual of debt. How high does our national debt have to be until some people get worried about it? From memory the PBR said it would be something like 57% of national GDP by 2011!
 


k2bluesky

New member
Sep 22, 2008
803
Brighton
I wonder where Brown got his degree, Woolworths? the guy has the economic intelligence of a five year old in a sweet shop, chucking money at lame ducks just to keep his party's voters happy, says everything about politics - done for the good of the party not the country. Hard times needs strong government, he is a weak leader - he will destroy the pound, bankrupt the country and be unable to stop 3 million unemployed by next Christmas, then there will be no more money for hand outs or 'government jobs' for those people who think he's so wonderful. The Germans think he's mad, the USA won't bail out 3 major car companies, are they all wrong and Brown right?.He won't even be able save his own arse let alone the world!
 




simmo

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2008
2,787
I can't see how it has caused the economic downturn. Of course some aspects have made it worse, e.g. the public debt. But as I see it, you can't blame the government for Northern Rock offering 125% mortgages, or offering sub-prime mortgages. If Northern Rock hadn't offered such risky investments, then they wouldn't be in the situation they are now. That's not the government's fault for not regulating, that's Northern Rock's stupidity.

I don't believe that the VAT cuts will do much in the way of boosting consumer demand.

This is nonsence, of course you can blame the government for 125% mortgages, they can legislate against this if required.

But of course they didn't do this at the time because 125% mortgages helped create the housing boom bubble and the false economy of affluence that this brought the people of Britain, which they loved and encouraged. This was also financially beneficial for them because of the fees that they took from stamp duty etc.

So what happened to all this money and this is were Brown is even more culpable because when these times were good rather than investing the money in worthwhile projects he frittered it away.

Now the rainy days have arrived we have nothing to fall back on.
 


Robbie G

New member
Jul 26, 2004
1,771
Hassocks
This is nonsence, of course you can blame the government for 125% mortgages, they can legislate against this if required.

The point I'm making is that if Northern Rock didn't offer such mortgages, then the government would never need to regulate anyway.
 


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