Did Gordon Brown save the world?

[Buzzer]

Difference between presiding over something, and causing something. The latter, he did not do.

Absolute nonsense. Raids on pension funds, massive expansion of the public sector at the expense of the entrepreneurial private sector where wealth and prosperity are really made. He's the one that has saddled us with the largest national and personal debt levels ever. He and Ed Balls are the ones that presided over the regulation of the financial services in the UK which allowed banks like Northern Rock to get into so much sh*t. He's as guilty as any American sub-prime lender if not more so.

Shite chancellor, shite PM.

 

[London Calling]

f*** sake, NMH. You do talk some scollobs when it comes to the Tories. Destroy the world? How about some informed and intelligent opinion rather than that little nugget?

For the record, the Tories are vehemently opposed to the Keynesian model put forward by Labour. They will NOT commit to bankrupting Britain as Labour are doing.

Interestingly, the Germans agree with the Tories. Just see what the German Finance Minister has to say about our great saviour:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7776462.stm


Criticising the UK government's decision to cut VAT from 17.5% to 15%, Mr Steinbruck questioned how effective this will be. "Are you really going to buy a DVD player because it now costs £39.10 instead of £39.90?" he said. "All this will do is raise Britain's debt to a level that will take a whole generation to work off."

Saying the UK government was now "tossing around billions", Mr Steinbruck questioned why Britain was now closely following the high public spending model put forward by 20th Century economist John Maynard Keynes. "The switch from decades of supply-side politics all the way to a crass Keynesianism is breathtaking," he said. "When I ask about the origins of the [financial] crisis, economists I respect tell me it is the credit-financed growth of recent years and decades. "Isn't this the same mistake everyone is suddenly making again, under all the public pressure?"

EU commissioner McCreedy has also warned about our spiralling debt and such is the schism between the Germans and the blindingy stupid and reckless British Government that apparently Gordon Brown is giving Frau Merkel the cold shoulder. This from Mark Mardell on his BBC blog

Gordon Brown is hosting a "European global economic summit" with President Sarkozy and the Commission's President Barroso at Downing Street today. When we ask Mrs Merkel's office why she is not going, the indignant reply is "Ask Gordon Brown why she hasn't been invited".

So we've gone from Stalin to Mr Bean to Robert Maxwell in one year.

Oh joy. All hail our all-powerful leader. What a f***ing mess.

Interesting review also Buzzer have you read this interview SPIEGEL Interview with German Finance Minister Steinbrück: 'We Were All Staring into the Abyss' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International


Lets note the Gertmany economy is still more planned than the UK, the banks have not got themselves in such a financial mess and they don't lick US arses either.

The coalition Govt may also restrict, what Steinbruck may really want to do.

I rather have him in our Cabinet than the OxBridge lot we presently have.

LC

 

[Buzzer]

I back Keynes - on the simple grounds that (i) he was right; and (ii) he lived at Firle. And we know about things in Firle..

Gosh, that's blown my arguments out of the water. Tsk, what was I thinking. Of course Keynesian economics is the answer.

The last time Britain was truly, truly in this kind of mess, when Healey went cap in hand to the IMF, the then Prime Minister Callaghan said the following:

`We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.'
Prime minister James Callaghan, Labour Party conference speech 1976.


And you know what? He was right. It's a proven failure. So come on LB. Care to offer a little more of a critique into why it's the panacea you claim?

 

[Buzzer]

Interesting review also Buzzer have you read this interview SPIEGEL Interview with German Finance Minister Steinbrück: 'We Were All Staring into the Abyss' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International


Lets note the Gertmany economy is still more planned than the UK, the banks have not got themselves in such a financial mess and they don't lick US arses either.

The coalition Govt may also restrict, what Steinbruck may really want to do.

I rather have him in our Cabinet than the OxBridge lot we presently have.

LC

Agree. And the German financial model really is very well placed to weather the storm. We're seriously not and Gordon Brown seems to be playing double or quits with his current plan.

Germany has a much higher savings rate than we do. Something like 12% of earnings (although offset against that is a lower pensions investment as a % of GDP BUT it's catching up), credit is harder to get and personal debt levels are much lower. And they have a Government that, in the words of Peer Steinbruck, wants to "...be honest to our citizens. Policies can take some of the sharpness out of it, but no matter how much any government does, the recession we are in now is unavoidable"

Oh for some of that kind of talk from Darling and Brown. We've got to accept that the party is over and we should start getting used to lower living standards. Spending your way out is just madness.

 

[Normal Rob]

what really gets me about politicians (of all sides) is their pettyness. GB made a slip of the tongue. We all do. But just look at the reaction from some of the tories (especially the one on the second row to the right of DC - and despite my lefty leanings this is not a anti-tory post - I'm sure that the reaction on the labour benches would have been similar had it been the other way round)

 

[Buzzer]

Agree with you there, NR, but sadly there's no consensus as to how to get out of this pickle.

The Tories are failing to take the moral high ground here as you say and Labour's attitude is to try and pretend that the Tory view is the marginal one and refusing to acknowledge any debate, hence Brown not inviting Merkel to a summit.

Mind you, I seriously believe that Brown DOES think he's saved the world. A month or two back minister's were crowing about his influence abroad when in fact his profligacy and wanton abandonment of any fiscal prudence has made even our closest allies baulk. I doubt there's much dissent in the cabinet and Brown has just surrounded himself with yes-men. He's really got to go for the good of the country.

 

[London Calling]

Agree with you there, NR, but sadly there's no consensus as to how to get out of this pickle.

The Tories are failing to take the moral high ground here as you say and Labour's attitude is to try and pretend that the Tory view is the marginal one and refusing to acknowledge any debate, hence Brown not inviting Merkel to a summit.

Mind you, I seriously believe that Brown DOES think he's saved the world. A month or two back minister's were crowing about his influence abroad when in fact his profligacy and wanton abandonment of any fiscal prudence has made even our closest allies baulk. I doubt there's much dissent in the cabinet and Brown has just surrounded himself with yes-men. He's really got to go for the good of the country.

Too afraid of lossing an election for any dissent, plus Labour knows he has more knowledege of running an ecomony than Darling, it appears that his grasp of the issues of running an ecomomy is better than most of his counterparts.

Dispite the utterings what are the real financial (expenditure) differences at the mo?

And at the next election?

At the last election the spending plans between all 3 main parties had less than 1% between them all, with Labour in the middle?

Will it really be that different at the next election? Me thinks not.

 

[London Calling]

Agree with you there, NR, but sadly there's no consensus as to how to get out of this pickle.

The Tories are failing to take the moral high ground here as you say and Labour's attitude is to try and pretend that the Tory view is the marginal one and refusing to acknowledge any debate, hence Brown not inviting Merkel to a summit.

Mind you, I seriously believe that Brown DOES think he's saved the world. A month or two back minister's were crowing about his influence abroad when in fact his profligacy and wanton abandonment of any fiscal prudence has made even our closest allies baulk. I doubt there's much dissent in the cabinet and Brown has just surrounded himself with yes-men. He's really got to go for the good of the country.

To me a focus should be on, where can Government "extra" £ faciltate private cash, we had a "Political " one of these in London. The new mayor for political reasons axed the East LOndon crossing. But the case was already established and it was a partnership of 20% Govt money and 80% private.

 

[sten_super]

At the last election the spending plans between all 3 main parties had less than 1% between them all, with Labour in the middle?

Will it really be that different at the next election? Me thinks not.

I'm not so sure. I think whoever comes into government next time will have to at least appear to be more frugal, and address the issue of national debt. The thing that will work against Labour is that people won't trust them if they promise a frugal budget; as we've seen they are the party of tax and spend. That may work against them.

I'd like to see the Conservative party promise to cut spending fairly dramatically and reduce the national debt, with a promise of tax cuts (at least in real terms) in the future. However I'm not holding my breath.

 

[simmo]

Difference between presiding over something, and causing something. The latter, he did not do.

Don't you think having spent the last 12 years as either Chancellor or Prime Minister of the UK he is just a teensy weeensy bit to blame for the current economic position of the UK.

I agree the present situatuion is a global phenomenon, however, with better stewardship from Brown we could be in a much better position i.e when times were good and revenue was up he frittered all the money away. Now when times are bad the cupboard is bare and becuase of him we have to borrow, borrow, borrow.

And as for saving the "financial" world. Let's get through 2008 and see what 2009 brings before we decide the answer on that one!!!!

 

[glasfryn]

Difference between presiding over something, and causing something. The latter, he did not do.

your wasting your breathe mate he is in there so its his fault I just wish some people would see the big picture.

the whole world is in trouble not just us and although I don't particularly like the Labour government I'm sure it would be better than the other options.

 

[User removed 4]

Don't you think having spent the last 12 years as either Chancellor or Prime Minister of the UK he is just a teensy weeensy bit to blame for the current economic position of the UK.

I agree the present situatuion is a global phenomenon, however, with better stewardship from Brown we could be in a much better position i.e when times were good and revenue was up he frittered all the money away. Now when times are bad the cupboard is bare and becuase of him we have to borrow, borrow, borrow.

And as for saving the "financial" world. Let's get through 2008 and see what 2009 brings before we decide the answer on that one!!!!

IS CORRECT.

 

[NMH]

Agree with you there, NR, but sadly there's no consensus as to how to get out of this pickle.

The Tories are failing to take the moral high ground here as you say and Labour's attitude is to try and pretend that the Tory view is the marginal one and refusing to acknowledge any debate, hence Brown not inviting Merkel to a summit.

Mind you, I seriously believe that Brown DOES think he's saved the world. A month or two back minister's were crowing about his influence abroad when in fact his profligacy and wanton abandonment of any fiscal prudence has made even our closest allies baulk. I doubt there's much dissent in the cabinet and Brown has just surrounded himself with yes-men. He's really got to go for the good of the country.

You must have missed the recent summit then, where many World leaders were in agreement about working to survive the downturn. Brown implementing plans, however small, are headlines - a minor change in the VAT is never going to make a LOT of difference, but with even the small changes the tories cry out.
So the German thinks the percentage won't make a difference to the people, but oddly he's saying it WILL make a sea change to our national economy??
Ha ha Herman, but you better make your mind up about whether it's a big change or a little one, because it cannot mean nothing on one side, but everything on the other!
Still the public asked for relief from taxes, and when it's given - even in the meagre amount - it's grist for the mill.
Pathetic stuff tories, you can't have it all your way, as much as you struggle to try.

Incidentally, a friend of mine just had a £3,000 surprise on a rental property he bought before H.I.P.S. inspections were available, because he DIDN'T KNOW the house needed re-wiring. Now he HAS to shell out pronto, without warning.
Tories claim HIPS are expensive (at around £300 ?), and the SELLER has to provide the inspection report. Too bad for the buyer, when an item that costs so much to buy is such a RISK!
Tsk, 'shame' that Labour have decided that sellers shouldn't be legally able to hide potentially bankrupting problems from buyers. Tories think that is quite alright though.
How'd you people like to buy a cheap car from a crook, with sawdust in the transmission, mileage clocked to hide 100,000 miles that the old banger has done, nicely painted rust and filler, cracked block, and a temporarily plugged radiator. Now multiply the outlay one-hundred-fold, with a house.
HIPS are incredibly inexpensive, yet the f***ing tories are yelping about the expense??

(note; several people, that will be nicely employed making HIPS inspections, have paid the thousands of pounds for the education too - it doesn't come out of your or my pocket)

 

[Buzzer]

The pound has hit a record low against the Euro. Put quite simply, investors have NO faith in the British Government and are therefore not investing.

This isn't America's fault, this isn't the fault of Thatcher, Bin Laden or Colin Hawkins. This is the rest of the world's opinion on the stewardship by Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling.

How can anyone claim that he's saved anything?

 

[Buzzer]

You must have missed the recent summit then, where many World leaders were in agreement about working to survive the downturn. Brown implementing plans, however small, are headlines - a minor change in the VAT is never going to make a LOT of difference, but with even the small changes the tories cry out.
So the German thinks the percentage won't make a difference to the people, but oddly he's saying it WILL make a sea change to our national economy??
Ha ha Herman, but you better make your mind up about whether it's a big change or a little one, because it cannot mean nothing on one side, but everything on the other!
Still the public asked for relief from taxes, and when it's given - even in the meagre amount - it's grist for the mill.
Pathetic stuff tories, you can't have it all your way, as much as you struggle to try.

Incidentally, a friend of mine just had a £3,000 surprise on a rental property he bought before H.I.P.S. inspections were available, because he DIDN'T KNOW the house needed re-wiring. Now he HAS to shell out pronto, without warning.
Tories claim HIPS are expensive (at around £300 ?), and the SELLER has to provide the inspection report. Too bad for the buyer, when an item that costs so much to buy is such a RISK!
Tsk, 'shame' that Labour have decided that sellers shouldn't be legally able to hide potentially bankrupting problems from buyers. Tories think that is quite alright though.
How'd you people like to buy a cheap car from a crook, with sawdust in the transmission, mileage clocked to hide 100,000 miles that the old banger has done, nicely painted rust and filler, cracked block, and a temporarily plugged radiator. Now multiply the outlay one-hundred-fold, with a house.
HIPS are incredibly inexpensive, yet the f***ing tories are yelping about the expense??

That's it? That's your explanation? The Tories oppose HIPS? Woohoo! Yep. You obviously went to the Lord Bracknell school of economic thought. That's, like, deep man. End of the world kind of stuff. With policies like that, the Tories will surely DESTROY the world.

If You bothered to read what the Germans were saying they were telling us that the BORROWING is out of control and just damn risky AND has little chance of success. Callaghan knew it back in the 70s. The VAT is just tinkering at the edges, a meaningless token gesture and will be reversed in a year.

Care to explain why the pound is so low if Britain has such a strong economy?

 

[NMH]

The pound has hit a record low against the Euro. Put quite simply, investors have NO faith in the British Government and are therefore not investing.

This isn't America's fault, this isn't the fault of Thatcher, Bin Laden or Colin Hawkins. This is the rest of the world's opinion on the stewardship by Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling.

How can anyone claim that he's saved anything?

Not America's fault?? THEY ARE GOING THROUGH THE SAME CRISIS MATE!
Don't try to separate this country's issues alone from the rest of THE WORLD just to serve a myopic tory viewpoint. Brown isn't "saving the world" either, not on his own at least. World leaders have agreed to pull together.
Don't you watch or read the news? ....or do you just read the tory-tainted bits?

Cameron is a nob, face it. I have never seen such a weak tory party, or leadership. If that party came up with one suggestion or solution of his own instead of the repetitive and predictable cynical sniping at the incumbent, I might respect them for it. Boring rhetoric is their speciality, and that's what they would like to enact in the shape of a throwback to Thatchernomics. Higher taxes for the general public, the greedy rich can always pay accountants to dodge their bills, and hike the percentage rates so a few can prosper at the cost of the many.

I'm not even a fan of Brown, but the tory snakes in the grass only hiss at labour - while doing nothing positive and suggesting nothing contributory during difficult times for the whole world.

 

[Buzzer]

I'm talking specifically about the relative strengths of the developed world's economies. It's a bloody good indicator of the confidence foreign investors have in that country's economy.

And we're rock bottom. That's Brown's fault. NOT the yanks. Christ sake, read what I've written before consulting the Ladybird book of anti-tory cliches, eh?

 

[Buzzer]

And kindly read my very first post in this thread before (i) accusing me of not reading the news and (ii) claiming the Tories are on their own in opposing Brown.

It saves on me having to correct you later on

 

[NMH]

That's it? That's your explanation? The Tories oppose HIPS? Woohoo! Yep. You obviously went to the Lord Bracknell school of economic thought. That's, like, deep man. End of the world kind of stuff. With policies like that, the Tories will surely DESTROY the world.

If You bothered to read what the Germans were saying they were telling us that the BORROWING is out of control and just damn risky AND has little chance of success. Callaghan knew it back in the 70s. The VAT is just tinkering at the edges, a meaningless token gesture and will be reversed in a year.

Care to explain why the pound is so low if Britain has such a strong economy?

Who says we have such a strong economy?
"Double edged sword" is how some experts see it - encouraging international TRADE for Britain to revive any flagging in our part of the World.....is that a BAD thing in a World recession?? According to the Germans it is - but then we don't spend Euros, do we? It might be nice if people SPEND Euros with us.

 

[NMH]

I'm talking specifically about the relative strengths of the developed world's economies. It's a bloody good indicator of the confidence foreign investors have in that country's economy.

And we're rock bottom. That's Brown's fault. NOT the yanks. Christ sake, read what I've written before consulting the Ladybird book of anti-tory cliches, eh?

Unfortunately, I read your posts as 'Ladybird book of anti-labour cliches', only typical of the party you claim blind allegiance to.

Repeat, I am not a Brown supporter