[Other Sport] Define a Woman

[Weststander]

My thoughts on the sport thing is that this is getting sorted. As a relatively new idea it is going to take some time.

It seems to me that there are many different factors to take into account at an individual sport level. The best placed people to do this are the administrators of each sport. They can look at the power advantages, opinions of the other competitors etc etc and find something that works. It may take some tweaking but they will get there.

The half arsed, incomplete and uninformed opinions of people on social media with no experience in said competitive sport really have little value in the discussion. Of course those people will never realise that.

Give it time, it will work out.

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I think you’re right in this and most western states. But with great empathy for anyone not a clearly straight heterosexual in somewhere like Russia, Hungary or some African countries.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Just affects a small number of people?

This twitter thread explains how it impacts others: https://twitter.com/racheline_m/status/1538603568751591429

Cis people: I need you to understand (and help others understand) that “the trans debate” is NOT relevant “to only a small number of people” but to everyone. Thread below for why:

(This is focused on cis women, but cis dudes I need you to listen too. You are also in danger.)

Being anti-trans is only possible by policing the gender and sex of everyone. Because I promise you - you don’t know who is trans and who isn’t.

Also, most of this isn’t really about trans people although we get hurt the most first - it’s about control.

Anti-trans policies require guesswork and punish people - regardless of gender and sex - for not conforming to extremely stereotypical (and white) assumptions about what men and women look like, act like, and dress like.

Here are just some of the types of cis women who have faced harassment, violence, and legal repercussions for using a women’s bathroom:
- women with short hair
- women with alopecia
- women who are athletes
- women who have had mastectomies
- women who are tall
(Continued)

- women who are balding
- women who have facial hair and choose not to remove it for a range of reasons including religious ones.
- women who like pants and button downs.
- women who like hyper-feminine theatrical vintage styles
- women with pronounced facial features

Cis men also face harassment in their gendered spaces if they are slight, short, have long hair, don’t obviously grow facial hair even when clean shaven, prefer not to use a urinal, are disinterested in bonding rituals centered around misogyny and violence, and more

When trans people lose rights everyone becomes open to scrutiny by the gender police. Anyone empowered to police gender is not trying to protect anyone - they’re like a teacher that hates you and loves their red pen.

I mean we’ve got multiple state governments super hyped to give kids internal and external genital exams because there might be one trans girl in Ohio playing softball. What’s the purpose of that beyond telling girls their bodies belong to the state?

Anyway, the more people anti-trans people can find and penalize for being gender suspicious, the happier they are. It’s a form of fascism that isn’t even about trans people. It’s about your freedom in your clothes, hobbies, jobs, and relationships.

It’s about motherhood not being optional. It’s about every creative, curious cell in your body being dangerous.

For cis women, trans rights are about whether you’re good enough at being a woman and good enough at being confined to the white Christian nationalist version of womanhood to be safe.

You probably aren’t. And no amount of punishing trans people will change that.

You like wearing pants? You like your kickboxing class? Big fan of wearing your hair short? Super into making your own decisions about when, if ever, to have kids? Enjoy sitting in anyway other than legs crossed at the ankle? Congrats, cis women, trans rights are about you.

And if you don’t stick up for your trans siblings, you’re at risk of having to say goodbye to everything you love about how you live as the gender you’ve always been.

The anti-trans panic part of a broader fascist agenda focused on taking away everyone’s choices in public and in private.

Abandoning trans people to persecution and death is immoral.

It also opens the doors of your community and your home and your heart to fascism.

Simple self-interest really does require cis people to support trans rights, even if it makes you uncomfortable, and even if you don’t know any trans people.

If you don’t care about us, at least save yourselves.

And maybe get busy explaining that to the cis folks around you

Also cis people? Wanna be useful? Write a letter to the editor every time a newspaper advocates that a party abandon trans rights because it’s not relevant to enough people to matter in our politics.

Also are you bleating about liking this thread but cursing me for “academic” language like “cis”?

Then USE YOUR OWN WORDS TO CONVEY THESE POINTS IN A WAY PEOPLE YOU KNOW WILL BE RECEPTIVE TO.

Come on!

And for the “but sports!” crew:
https://www.getrevue.co/profile/she...ter-card&client=DesktopWeb&element=issue-card [blog post replacing the thread it linked to]​

Was that lot written by someone who is genuinely fighting for the rights of trans people, or is it a parody written by someone who is trying to illustrate how absurd these arguments can get?

 

[herecomesaregular]

Imagine how they would have felt going through this confusion without the information and understanding we have now. Isn't it rather wonderful that they felt free to discuss these feelings depth you rather than bury and hide then from a society that deems them inappropriate and wrong. Being young is all about figuring out who you are and what you are going to be. Who knows more freedom to consider themselves at a young age may improve mental health stats at a later date.

You and the poster you quoted say inward and narcissistic, I say self aware and in tune with them selves. (Aside from anything else a youth appearing narcissistic is not a new phenomenon).

I think I agree with your edit. Not sure what the ****** are but agree with the rest.

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They were very open, and I would always encourage that in my home, but it was something I felt a bit over analysed and over discussed, only because they sometimes seemed to be like a dog chasing their tale. I would like them to maybe just experiment, safely, and just see where they felt most comfortable. Not so keen on labelling everything. Personally, I felt the chest binder and the tattoos could have waited a bit too. But not for me to judge, walk a mile in another persons shoes etc. And yes, I probably forget how it was to be young and (quite naturally) self obsessed.

Anyway, I like the positive tone of your posts.

 

[dsr-burnley]

One thing that is often forgotten in all this. Whatever the definition of woman and man, people can be and are still split into two binary groups - people with Y chromosomes, and people without. This has not changed.

And the next thing that is forgotten is why they had separate women's sport in the first place. It was nothing to do with perceived gender or social issues or what it means to be a woman. It was because the absence of a Y chromosome is such a significant disadvantage that people without Y chromosomes cannot sensibly join in top level sport. That has not changed either.

So in the world of sport, all this "what is a woman" stuff is a waste of breath. People without Y chromosomes need their own sections of sport and people with Y chromosomes can't join in - full stop.

 

[sydney]

breasts , ovaries and a vagina define women generally.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Whilst you may not understand gender dysphoria to keep calling it silly tells us lots about you. I dont fully understand it myself but I certainly dont think its silly. For those that suffer from it, its a very real and life changing and can be the cause of clinical depression and anxiety

Just because in the great scheme of things it may only affect a small percentage, how the rest of us react to those people and how we treat them tells us a lot about ourselves as individuals and as a society as a whole. I for one would like my political leaders to be compassionate and understanding, rather than treat the whole thing as a bit of silliness.

I have no idea of your personal circumstances, but have a think about how your opinion on this would affect a child, sibling, relative or friend of yours who was one of those "silly" people you seem to discount so easily

Maybe I feel very uncomfortable with the creepers who want to give children hormone blockers and let kids have their genitals cuts off. And the insidious garbage of those who are pushing sexuality onto children at a very young age. Generally children that aren't their own.

Nothing more than Groomers.


When I said silliness I was referring to the people who think there are more than 2 genders and who want to force everyone else into their pronoun rubbish. Many trans people don't buy into that tripe either. They also only see men and women.

 

[The aloof gatekeeper]

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

Future generations won’t have all this need for labelling and putting people in boxes. You will be accepted for who you are, no tyrannical majority, much more fluid. We’ll be remembered and laughed at.

 

[nickbrighton]

Maybe I feel very uncomfortable with the creepers who want to give children hormone blockers and let kids have their genitals cuts off. And the insidious garbage of those who are pushing sexuality onto children at a very young age. Generally children that aren't their own.

Nothing more than Groomers.


When I said silliness I was referring to the people who think there are more than 2 genders and who want to force everyone else into their pronoun rubbish. Many trans people don't buy into that tripe either. They also only see men and women.

so as long as everyone conforms to your idea of things its fine, but deviate from that then its silly and garbage? People had much the same opinion on homosexuality a while ago. Its just a phase, he will grow out of it, its all affectation, attention seeking etc . The damage that that causes is immense,

There is a huge debate on when or if to start various therapies, and especially hormone blockers and surgery but to double down on calling the whole thing silly because YOU don't understand it makes no sense and makes you look silly.

This debate is needed , to understand and find the correct way of of providing help, it will take time to fully understand the physical and psychological reasons, and yes, somethings will be wrong.

No one as far as i am aware is suggesting instant access to surgery for every person who who at age 4 wants to dress up, but your stance of its all silly garbage, doesnt hold up, however you are entitled to hold your opinion, but I think its silly that you want to force others to use YOUR pronouns, but refuse to allow them to use theirs

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

so as long as everyone conforms to your idea of things its fine, but deviate from that then its silly and garbage? People had much the same opinion on homosexuality a while ago. Its just a phase, he will grow out of it, its all affectation, attention seeking etc . The damage that that causes is immense,

There is a huge debate on when or if to start various therapies, and especially hormone blockers and surgery but to double down on calling the whole thing silly because YOU don't understand it makes no sense and makes you look silly.

This debate is needed , to understand and find the correct way of of providing help, it will take time to fully understand the physical and psychological reasons, and yes, somethings will be wrong.

No one as far as i am aware is suggesting instant access to surgery for every person who who at age 4 wants to dress up, but your stance of its all silly garbage, doesnt hold up, however you are entitled to hold your opinion, but I think its silly that you want to force others to use YOUR pronouns, but refuse to allow them to use theirs

Totally agree, and I guess one of the main worries is adequate access to the right treatments and so on through the NHS - not just the surgery or whatever that might eventually come, but principally the assessment and diagnosis.

 

[The Clamp]

End of.
Full stop.
No debate.



Except it’s not, is it. No matter how much some people want it to be.

 

[dsr-burnley]

so as long as everyone conforms to your idea of things its fine, but deviate from that then its silly and garbage? People had much the same opinion on homosexuality a while ago. Its just a phase, he will grow out of it, its all affectation, attention seeking etc . The damage that that causes is immense,

There is a huge debate on when or if to start various therapies, and especially hormone blockers and surgery but to double down on calling the whole thing silly because YOU don't understand it makes no sense and makes you look silly.

This debate is needed , to understand and find the correct way of of providing help, it will take time to fully understand the physical and psychological reasons, and yes, somethings will be wrong.

No one as far as i am aware is suggesting instant access to surgery for every person who who at age 4 wants to dress up, but your stance of its all silly garbage, doesnt hold up, however you are entitled to hold your opinion, but I think its silly that you want to force others to use YOUR pronouns, but refuse to allow them to use theirs

It's not a new idea, actually. They used to castrate little boys before puberty and turn them into eunuchs, but as society became more modern it was generally agreed to be a barbaric practice and was put a stop to. I suppose some people might believe it's time to bring it back?

Whatever they do, it shouldn't be done until the child has reached an age to make responsible decisions. Which is 16 for sex, tattoos, and joining the army, so I can't see it being any less for this.

 

[nickbrighton]

It's not a new idea, actually. They used to castrate little boys before puberty and turn them into eunuchs, but as society became more modern it was generally agreed to be a barbaric practice and was put a stop to. I suppose some people might believe it's time to bring it back?

Whatever they do, it shouldn't be done until the child has reached an age to make responsible decisions. Which is 16 for sex, tattoos, and joining the army, so I can't see it being any less for this.

I dont disagree with you at all. I havent suggested that anyone is castrated at any age, my entire point is that the debate is needed, and that to call the whole issue silly because you dont understand it is wrong. Equating the practice of Eunuchs to the whole trans debate is not comparing like with like. All these gender, sexuality "issues" are as old as the human race, its just we are now starting to understand and in some cases accept that they are real things and happen with real people.

I dont understand it, I find the whole non binary thing incomprehensible TO ME, but I refuse to call it silly and force my own misunderstanding onto someone else. Which is what some contributors to the debate, here and in general want to do

 

[Razzoo]

Future generations won’t have all this need for labelling and putting people in boxes. You will be accepted for who you are, no tyrannical majority, much more fluid. We’ll be remembered and laughed at.

Unless we evolve from dimorphic beings then we are going to have to separate the sexes for certain things as a matter of safety and comfort especially where vulnerable people are involved.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

so as long as everyone conforms to your idea of things its fine, but deviate from that then its silly and garbage? People had much the same opinion on homosexuality a while ago. Its just a phase, he will grow out of it, its all affectation, attention seeking etc . The damage that that causes is immense,

Wrong. They can call or be whoever they want to be, just don't force others to buy into that view.

Would you force people into believing in a God just to appease religious people?

Or is it ok for people to not believe in things they cannot see?

There is a huge debate on when or if to start various therapies, and especially hormone blockers and surgery but to double down on calling the whole thing silly because YOU don't understand it makes no sense and makes you look silly.

Once again I was calling the gender/pronoun garbage silly. What you're describing is very serious due to the life long implications of messing with kids bodies.

This debate is needed , to understand and find the correct way of of providing help, it will take time to fully understand the physical and psychological reasons, and yes, somethings will be wrong.

Which is why the sensible option is like most adult decisions wait until they at least reach 18 to make such a huge decision.

No one as far as i am aware is suggesting instant access to surgery for every person who who at age 4 wants to dress up, but your stance of its all silly garbage, doesnt hold up, however you are entitled to hold your opinion, but I think its silly that you want to force others to use YOUR pronouns, but refuse to allow them to use theirs

Of course there are activists out there who are pushing ideologies onto kids.

Have you seen some of the ****wits posting on social media who are supposed to be looking after/teaching other peoples kids?

Where did I say I want to force pronouns on anyone? I didn't.

This video goes into a story about a 4 year old.

 

[brightn'ove]

I dont disagree with you at all. I havent suggested that anyone is castrated at any age, my entire point is that the debate is needed, and that to call the whole issue silly because you dont understand it is wrong. Equating the practice of Eunuchs to the whole trans debate is not comparing like with like. All these gender, sexuality "issues" are as old as the human race, its just we are now starting to understand and in some cases accept that they are real things and happen with real people.

I dont understand it, I find the whole non binary thing incomprehensible TO ME, but I refuse to call it silly and force my own misunderstanding onto someone else. Which is what some contributors to the debate, here and in general want to do

You are wasting your time with these posters

 

[BBassic]

I dont disagree with you at all. I havent suggested that anyone is castrated at any age, my entire point is that the debate is needed, and that to call the whole issue silly because you dont understand it is wrong. Equating the practice of Eunuchs to the whole trans debate is not comparing like with like. All these gender, sexuality "issues" are as old as the human race, its just we are now starting to understand and in some cases accept that they are real things and happen with real people.

I dont understand it, I find the whole non binary thing incomprehensible TO ME, but I refuse to call it silly and force my own misunderstanding onto someone else. Which is what some contributors to the debate, here and in general want to do

I think this is the key bit.

We're in a, no pun intended, transitional era right now.

In a few generations time I don't think these vitriolic discussions we're all dragged into will be happening. Over time I think it will just become normal.

There are issues that need solving and they will be over time. Not in our lifetimes I don't think.

Like you I don't fully understand it all and I consider myself a lefty snowflake But I'm not about to lambast people for how they are perceiving their identity.

 

[BadFish]

You are wasting your time with these posters

Quite.

The lack of logic and coherent argument is stunning.
[MENTION=33955]nickbrighton[/MENTION] you're banging your head against a brick wall here mate.

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Quite.

The lack of logic and coherent argument is stunning.
[MENTION=33955]nickbrighton[/MENTION] you're banging your head against a brick wall here mate.

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You don't care about logic. You'll defy it when it pleases you.

 

[Crawley Dingo]

Be very, very careful about dismissing Gender Studies.

These countries have dismissed it, perhaps you’d consider moving to one of them (might be an upgrade on creepy Crawley?)




Romania


Your point about science is a poor one. There is increasing evidence that in some pregnancies, there can be a huge differential between the affects of hormones in a foetus’ brain development compared to it’s body development; this can produce both physical (intersex) and gender differences compared to binary foetus. Effectively, a female brain is produced in a male body, vice versa and everything in between.

The separation between gender and biological sex is now the widely accepted model in western science. Individuals in minority groups deserve the respect and understanding of the wider population, only they can describe what oppression or in this case transphobia feels like. There is a way where feminists and trans rights campaigners can agree and compromise, it won’t happen all the time the right wing media and right wing politicians are using the issue to make stupid people angry.

Having countries dismiss it is neither an argument for or against, I would say that given they are former Soviet Countries they can see things in it that others miss like its totalitarian tendencies.

The point on science is central, from the idea that there is an internal identity to the point of advocating sanction against people who state biology/Science preference like JK Rowling, this is Totalitarianism.

This does no needed to be taught or infused in education when so many children leave school functionally illiterate. I would be in favour of it parcelled as other outreach programmes like learning disabilities.

As for the Civil Rights movement its running on fumes, thats why so much of it is either made up, extreme or brings different groups into conflict.

I think Kherson in Ukraine would be an upgrade on Crawley at times.