[Other Sport] Define a Woman

[beorhthelm]

It's easy. Start the TransOlympics in the same way the Paralympians have their own games. They can all have their own class within disciplines.

sounds easy, is that acceptable to those transwomen that want to be treated equally with all other women?

 

[macbeth]

the issue with the current 'trans debate' is that it's actually so far removed from what's actually concerning transgender people now.


this is the reality of what trans people face in the United kingdom:
[tweet]1547189963556528130[/tweet]

the vast majority of them just want decent and safe healthcare. you only need to look at how quickly people like Mordaunt have performed U-turns on this issue to see that it's evidently the buzzword topic to appease the current tory voter base, and the next time such a leadership contest happens again it'll be a different group of people they're going after. again the fact that most of the newspaper headlines contain the same 'moral panic' tropes as were written about gay people during the 80s-90s is very indicative here.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

sounds easy, is that acceptable to those transwomen that want to be treated equally with all other women?

You'll have to ask them. As a woman who is happy as a woman, I wouldn't know.

Is it acceptable for a featherweight to box against a heavyweight?

 

[carlzeiss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDkCe2cUHAA

 

[Wellesley]

It's easy. Start the TransOlympics in the same way the Paralympians have their own games. They can all have their own class within disciplines.

Brilliant, this will have to be followed or preceded by the transparalympics of course. Not to mention the trans version of every other major sporting event. There'll always be some sport to watch on the telly.

 

[carlzeiss]

sounds easy, is that acceptable to those transwomen that want to be treated equally with all other women?

This women doesn't think that would be acceptable , she seems happy with the way things are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMP1o7KMT5s&t=224s

 

[Crawley Dingo]

This issue has nothing to do with Trans and everything to do with Gender Theory, Trans have been caught up in the tide so to speak.

Gender theory was started to be implimented 25-30 years ago when Identity began to be prioritised over Biology, this passed without a murmer from the Tories as like many they didn't understand it. As this involves the fundemental way you view the world and it changed without debate this alone should scare you. It is a creation of the left.

Its now that as problems emerge the Tories are beginning to bark when their real crime was being asleep on guard 25 years ago.

The main problems I see are that it encourages children to become inward looking and narcassistic, by definition self identity does that wereas sex is more outward looking.

It promotes beleif above science and culture.

As for OPs question the answer is a woman is whatever someone says it is. If you want it to be biological you then have to reprioritise biology above identity, ie Sex before Gender.

 

[Acker79]

Just affects a small number of people?

This twitter thread explains how it impacts others: https://twitter.com/racheline_m/status/1538603568751591429

Cis people: I need you to understand (and help others understand) that “the trans debate” is NOT relevant “to only a small number of people” but to everyone. Thread below for why:

(This is focused on cis women, but cis dudes I need you to listen too. You are also in danger.)

Being anti-trans is only possible by policing the gender and sex of everyone. Because I promise you - you don’t know who is trans and who isn’t.

Also, most of this isn’t really about trans people although we get hurt the most first - it’s about control.

Anti-trans policies require guesswork and punish people - regardless of gender and sex - for not conforming to extremely stereotypical (and white) assumptions about what men and women look like, act like, and dress like.

Here are just some of the types of cis women who have faced harassment, violence, and legal repercussions for using a women’s bathroom:
- women with short hair
- women with alopecia
- women who are athletes
- women who have had mastectomies
- women who are tall
(Continued)

- women who are balding
- women who have facial hair and choose not to remove it for a range of reasons including religious ones.
- women who like pants and button downs.
- women who like hyper-feminine theatrical vintage styles
- women with pronounced facial features

Cis men also face harassment in their gendered spaces if they are slight, short, have long hair, don’t obviously grow facial hair even when clean shaven, prefer not to use a urinal, are disinterested in bonding rituals centered around misogyny and violence, and more

When trans people lose rights everyone becomes open to scrutiny by the gender police. Anyone empowered to police gender is not trying to protect anyone - they’re like a teacher that hates you and loves their red pen.

I mean we’ve got multiple state governments super hyped to give kids internal and external genital exams because there might be one trans girl in Ohio playing softball. What’s the purpose of that beyond telling girls their bodies belong to the state?

Anyway, the more people anti-trans people can find and penalize for being gender suspicious, the happier they are. It’s a form of fascism that isn’t even about trans people. It’s about your freedom in your clothes, hobbies, jobs, and relationships.

It’s about motherhood not being optional. It’s about every creative, curious cell in your body being dangerous.

For cis women, trans rights are about whether you’re good enough at being a woman and good enough at being confined to the white Christian nationalist version of womanhood to be safe.

You probably aren’t. And no amount of punishing trans people will change that.

You like wearing pants? You like your kickboxing class? Big fan of wearing your hair short? Super into making your own decisions about when, if ever, to have kids? Enjoy sitting in anyway other than legs crossed at the ankle? Congrats, cis women, trans rights are about you.

And if you don’t stick up for your trans siblings, you’re at risk of having to say goodbye to everything you love about how you live as the gender you’ve always been.

The anti-trans panic part of a broader fascist agenda focused on taking away everyone’s choices in public and in private.

Abandoning trans people to persecution and death is immoral.

It also opens the doors of your community and your home and your heart to fascism.

Simple self-interest really does require cis people to support trans rights, even if it makes you uncomfortable, and even if you don’t know any trans people.

If you don’t care about us, at least save yourselves.

And maybe get busy explaining that to the cis folks around you

Also cis people? Wanna be useful? Write a letter to the editor every time a newspaper advocates that a party abandon trans rights because it’s not relevant to enough people to matter in our politics.

Also are you bleating about liking this thread but cursing me for “academic” language like “cis”?

Then USE YOUR OWN WORDS TO CONVEY THESE POINTS IN A WAY PEOPLE YOU KNOW WILL BE RECEPTIVE TO.

Come on!

And for the “but sports!” crew:
https://www.getrevue.co/profile/she...ter-card&client=DesktopWeb&element=issue-card [blog post replacing the thread it linked to]​

 

[nickbrighton]

Same age as everyone else.

It's not the hermaphrodites that are creating all the silliness though is it.

Only for the people who buy into the gender silliness. For normal people it's all rather easy to define.

Female is to woman as Male is to man.

Whilst you may not understand gender dysphoria to keep calling it silly tells us lots about you. I dont fully understand it myself but I certainly dont think its silly. For those that suffer from it, its a very real and life changing and can be the cause of clinical depression and anxiety

Just because in the great scheme of things it may only affect a small percentage, how the rest of us react to those people and how we treat them tells us a lot about ourselves as individuals and as a society as a whole. I for one would like my political leaders to be compassionate and understanding, rather than treat the whole thing as a bit of silliness.

I have no idea of your personal circumstances, but have a think about how your opinion on this would affect a child, sibling, relative or friend of yours who was one of those "silly" people you seem to discount so easily

 

[Pavilionaire]

OK then, when my wife wakes up at 2am to find me pacing the bedroom, I'll say to her ' Don’t you realise it'll only take one super trans woman athlete to ruin all women's sport forever!' I imagine she'll say ' My God you're right! Now I can't sleep either.'

I'm sure the whores of Bangkok slept on too as the first ladyboy sashayed into Nana Plaza

 

[kentgully]

Enough of all this bullshit... too many idiots getting sucked into this absolute nonsense.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Enough of all this bullshit... too many idiots getting sucked into this absolute nonsense.

That’s the spirit!

 

[carlzeiss]

Just affects a small number of people?

This twitter thread explains how it impacts others: https://twitter.com/racheline_m/status/1538603568751591429

Cis people: I need you to understand (and help others understand) that “the trans debate” is NOT relevant “to only a small number of people” but to everyone. Thread below for why:

(This is focused on cis women, but cis dudes I need you to listen too. You are also in danger.)

Being anti-trans is only possible by policing the gender and sex of everyone. Because I promise you - you don’t know who is trans and who isn’t.

Also, most of this isn’t really about trans people although we get hurt the most first - it’s about control.

Anti-trans policies require guesswork and punish people - regardless of gender and sex - for not conforming to extremely stereotypical (and white) assumptions about what men and women look like, act like, and dress like.

Here are just some of the types of cis women who have faced harassment, violence, and legal repercussions for using a women’s bathroom:
- women with short hair
- women with alopecia
- women who are athletes
- women who have had mastectomies
- women who are tall
(Continued)

- women who are balding
- women who have facial hair and choose not to remove it for a range of reasons including religious ones.
- women who like pants and button downs.
- women who like hyper-feminine theatrical vintage styles
- women with pronounced facial features

Cis men also face harassment in their gendered spaces if they are slight, short, have long hair, don’t obviously grow facial hair even when clean shaven, prefer not to use a urinal, are disinterested in bonding rituals centered around misogyny and violence, and more

When trans people lose rights everyone becomes open to scrutiny by the gender police. Anyone empowered to police gender is not trying to protect anyone - they’re like a teacher that hates you and loves their red pen.

I mean we’ve got multiple state governments super hyped to give kids internal and external genital exams because there might be one trans girl in Ohio playing softball. What’s the purpose of that beyond telling girls their bodies belong to the state?

Anyway, the more people anti-trans people can find and penalize for being gender suspicious, the happier they are. It’s a form of fascism that isn’t even about trans people. It’s about your freedom in your clothes, hobbies, jobs, and relationships.

It’s about motherhood not being optional. It’s about every creative, curious cell in your body being dangerous.

For cis women, trans rights are about whether you’re good enough at being a woman and good enough at being confined to the white Christian nationalist version of womanhood to be safe.

You probably aren’t. And no amount of punishing trans people will change that.

You like wearing pants? You like your kickboxing class? Big fan of wearing your hair short? Super into making your own decisions about when, if ever, to have kids? Enjoy sitting in anyway other than legs crossed at the ankle? Congrats, cis women, trans rights are about you.

And if you don’t stick up for your trans siblings, you’re at risk of having to say goodbye to everything you love about how you live as the gender you’ve always been.

The anti-trans panic part of a broader fascist agenda focused on taking away everyone’s choices in public and in private.

Abandoning trans people to persecution and death is immoral.

It also opens the doors of your community and your home and your heart to fascism.

Simple self-interest really does require cis people to support trans rights, even if it makes you uncomfortable, and even if you don’t know any trans people.

If you don’t care about us, at least save yourselves.

And maybe get busy explaining that to the cis folks around you

Also cis people? Wanna be useful? Write a letter to the editor every time a newspaper advocates that a party abandon trans rights because it’s not relevant to enough people to matter in our politics.

Also are you bleating about liking this thread but cursing me for “academic” language like “cis”?

Then USE YOUR OWN WORDS TO CONVEY THESE POINTS IN A WAY PEOPLE YOU KNOW WILL BE RECEPTIVE TO.

Come on!

And for the “but sports!” crew:
https://www.getrevue.co/profile/she...ter-card&client=DesktopWeb&element=issue-card [blog post replacing the thread it linked to]​

I've always worn pants , never got into y fronts and haven't tried kick boxing either . Who knows , might have been good at it

 

[Baldseagull]

A woman is defined by what sex you are born at birth . End of . You can have changes made to your body to make you physically a female but that’s different to being a woman .

Google intersex, not everyone is xx or xy.

 

[Wellesley]

I'm sure the whores of Bangkok slept on too as the first ladyboy sashayed into Nana Plaza

Now that is a very witty riposte.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Google intersex, not everyone is xx or xy.

Although if you ARE Googling, best not to search xxx...

 

[Hugo Rune]

This issue has nothing to do with Trans and everything to do with Gender Theory………The main problems I see are that it encourages children to become inward looking and narcassistic, by definition self identity does that wereas sex is more outward looking.

It promotes belief above science and culture.

As for OPs question the answer is a woman is whatever someone says it is. If you want it to be biological you then have to reprioritise biology above identity, ie Sex before Gender.

Be very, very careful about dismissing Gender Studies.

These countries have dismissed it, perhaps you’d consider moving to one of them (might be an upgrade on creepy Crawley?)

“Russia

In Russia, gender studies is currently tolerated; however, state-supported practices that push a view related to perspectives on the gender of those in power – e.g. law solving in detail specifics of domestic violence - were abolished in 2017.[88] Since 2010, the Russian government has also been leading a campaign at the UNHRC to recognise "traditional values" as a legitimate consideration in human rights protection and promotion.

Hungary

Gender studies programs were banned in Hungary in October 2018. In a statement released by Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's office, a spokesperson stated that "The government's standpoint is that people are born either male or female, and we do not consider it acceptable for us to talk about socially constructed genders rather than biological sexes." The ban has attracted criticism from several European universities which offer the program, among them the Budapest-based Central European University, whose charter was revoked by the government, and is widely seen as part of the Hungarian ruling party's move away from democratic principles.

Romania

The Romanian Senate approved by broad majority in June 2020 an update of National Education Law that would ban theories and opinions on gender identity according to which gender is a separate concept from biological sex. In December 2020, the Constitutional Court of Romania overturned the ban; earlier, President Klaus Iohannis had challenged the bill.” Wiki

Your point about science is a poor one. There is increasing evidence that in some pregnancies, there can be a huge differential between the affects of hormones in a foetus’ brain development compared to it’s body development; this can produce both physical (intersex) and gender differences compared to binary foetus. Effectively, a female brain is produced in a male body, vice versa and everything in between.

The separation between gender and biological sex is now the widely accepted model in western science. Individuals in minority groups deserve the respect and understanding of the wider population, only they can describe what oppression or in this case transphobia feels like. There is a way where feminists and trans rights campaigners can agree and compromise, it won’t happen all the time the right wing media and right wing politicians are using the issue to make stupid people angry.

 

[herecomesaregular]

The main problems I see are that it encourages children to become inward looking and narcassistic, by definition self identity does that wereas sex is more outward looking.

It promotes beleif above science and culture.

As for OPs question the answer is a woman is whatever someone says it is. If you want it to be biological you then have to reprioritise biology above identity, ie Sex before Gender.

I tend to agree with this.

As an aside, as a 50 yo male comfortable in identifying as straight cis male I'm quite relieved.

I didn't envy at all my 21 yo cousin who stayed with me, in Brighton, for 6 weeks temporarily. In that time they said they were trans, also then identified as gender queer, told me they were asexual then later they were no longer asexual, they were bisexual and also another time they said they were considering identiying as pansexual. They were also often quite distressed about it all. The younger generation do seem rather self absorbed and narcassitic. Mostly, I was saddened by the distress it was causing them. (edit - I would just like to live in a kinder world, and let people identify how they want. There are only ********s and not ********s in the world imho).

 

[BadFish]

I tend to agree with this.

As an aside, as a 50 yo male comfortable in identifying as straight cis male I'm quite relieved.

I didn't envy at all my 21 yo cousin who stayed with me, in Brighton, for 6 weeks temporarily. In that time they said they were trans, also then identified as gender queer, told me they were asexual then later they were no longer asexual, they were bisexual and also another time they said they were considering identiying as pansexual. They were also often quite distressed about it all. The younger generation do seem rather self absorbed and narcassitic. Mostly, I was saddened by the distress it was causing them. (edit - I would just like to live in a kinder world, and let people identify how they want. There are only ********s and not ********s in the world imho).

Imagine how they would have felt going through this confusion without the information and understanding we have now. Isn't it rather wonderful that they felt free to discuss these feelings depth you rather than bury and hide then from a society that deems them inappropriate and wrong. Being young is all about figuring out who you are and what you are going to be. Who knows more freedom to consider themselves at a young age may improve mental health stats at a later date.

You and the poster you quoted say inward and narcissistic, I say self aware and in tune with them selves. (Aside from anything else a youth appearing narcissistic is not a new phenomenon).

I think I agree with your edit. Not sure what the ****** are but agree with the rest.

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk

 

[BadFish]

My thoughts on the sport thing is that this is getting sorted. As a relatively new idea it is going to take some time.

It seems to me that there are many different factors to take into account at an individual sport level. The best placed people to do this are the administrators of each sport. They can look at the power advantages, opinions of the other competitors etc etc and find something that works. It may take some tweaking but they will get there.

The half arsed, incomplete and uninformed opinions of people on social media with no experience in said competitive sport really have little value in the discussion. Of course those people will never realise that.

Give it time, it will work out.

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