[Albion] Defending Corners

[Machiavelli]

Its not like West Ham stopped creating chances from corners when Duffy came on, including the offside goal where Duffy jumps into Rob Sanchez.

It isn't but, then again, it was obvious from the outset that West Ham are brilliant at set pieces. This brilliance is demonstrated by the fact that they have the highest number of goals from corners and the relevant free kicks. As some other posters will note, I'm a big fan of Webster and can recognise Duffy's faults, which means that I don't think he should start every game. But his skill-set was tailor-made for this one.
I'd blame Sanchez more than Duffy for the disallowed goal, but I also think that unusually Potter made a mistake in not starting Duffy (I'd have played a back three, with him coming in for Sarmiento).

 

[amexer]

Last 2 games have played a back 4 with Veltman and Cucurella as full backs. I thought we defended better with 2 full backs. When Cucurella plays as a wingback tends to be caught upfield Also with WBs upfield 2 of our CBs spend a lot of time defending out wide.

 

[Machiavelli]

On the thread topic, I do wonder how we practice defending corners in training (ditto with other teams). More specifically, I'm intrigued by to what extent the (forthcoming) opposition's skill-sets can be replicated in training leading up to a match. West Ham deliver distinctive and consistent corners (and relevant free kicks): inswingers aimed into the six yard box, which they populate with their giants with excellent heading ability (Soucek, Dawson, Zouma, Antonio, Rice, Ogbonna).
Even more so, it's how goalkeepers are prepared to deal with this threat. I don't think Sanchez looked as though he was in command of either the goal or the disallowed one. One significant issue related to his promotion to the first team is that he's generated a calm because of his command of the penalty area especially from high balls. I hope this isn't a chink in his armour.
As another poster indicated, you can pretty much guarantee that JW-P will be placing them on a six-pence, fortunately Southampton don't have the height and heading ability of West Ham. Be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

[levs]

I thought the game suited Webster better because West Ham don’t put any pressure on the centre backs when in possession, so I was disappointed when he went down injured. As we were having lots of possession and Webster would have had lots of opportunities for his trademark marauding runs . But Duffy surprised me yet again with his ability on the ball as he didn’t put a foot wrong, and played a lovely pass out to Lamptey for the goal

But back to the subject of defending corners, I don’t like this little man blocks the run of the big man tactic. Seems they just get shoved out the way and have little to no effect on the attacking players run

 

[Swansman]

It isn't but, then again, it was obvious from the outset that West Ham are brilliant at set pieces. This brilliance is demonstrated by the fact that they have the highest number of goals from corners and the relevant free kicks. As some other posters will note, I'm a big fan of Webster and can recognise Duffy's faults, which means that I don't think he should start every game. But his skill-set was tailor-made for this one.
I'd blame Sanchez more than Duffy for the disallowed goal, but I also think that unusually Potter made a mistake in not starting Duffy (I'd have played a back three, with him coming in for Sarmiento).

As for the disallowed goal I would have to hear the communication in the penalty area to make a verdict. If Sanchez says it is his, Duffy needs to let him go for it. If he isnt saying anything, he needs to trust in Duffy.

I wouldnt have had anything against Duffy starting and maybe it would have been the right call but I think people are simplyfying it a bit. There's more to it than just "who is best at heading away set pieces?" as there's several aspects to take into consideration when picking a player. One example if we're sticking with set pieces, I'd argue you are also more likely to concede more of them with Duffys style of defending. 10% more set pieces for 10% better chance of him winning a duel compared to Webster/Veltman? Not a simple choice.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Brilliant performance, but I can't help but feel that without our ongoing weakness at defending corners we could have taken all 3.

Now it's totally fair to make the point that we were shorn of a lot of heading power last night. But look at this still. Are we really making the most of what we have? And the whole Maupay as a blocker thing? It's ended up in few conceded this season.



Personally I think it's time for a complete rethink. For example, they only have 4 in the box, would a man on the post for the outswinger not be an option? There's plenty of ours in there effectively doing nothing. Wouldn't you want your player you has the best chance of clearing (Burn) to be on the front post, or probably better, marking their best header of the ball? Is Lallana the player you would want on Rudiger if it had gone far post?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

The player Burn is closest to is Azpiulcueta who he's a foot taller than. To me this is an inherent flaw in zonal marking. You don't use your height resources effectively enough

 

[Swansman]

Brilliant performance, but I can't help but feel that without our ongoing weakness at defending corners we could have taken all 3.

Now it's totally fair to make the point that we were shorn of a lot of heading power last night. But look at this still. Are we really making the most of what we have? And the whole Maupay as a blocker thing? It's ended up in few conceded this season.

View attachment 143232

Personally I think it's time for a complete rethink. For example, they only have 4 in the box, would a man on the post for the outswinger not be an option? There's plenty of ours in there effectively doing nothing. Wouldn't you want your player you has the best chance of clearing (Burn) to be on the front post, or probably better, marking their best header of the ball? Is Lallana the player you would want on Rudiger if it had gone far post?

If Burn (turned with his side or back against the goal as you generally do in man marking on set pieces) marks Lukaku (turned towards goal) and they both makes a run to attack the ball coming in, Lukaku wins that duel 9/10 times. One of the many reasons man marking system on corners is a thing of the past, its such a huge advantage running forward and attacking the ball (with the intention of getting it in the same direction as the player is running) compared to turning or moving sidewards and trying to head it away from goal. If you watch the goal, Veltman is extremely close (reaching the same height) to winning the header against Lukaku, just jumps a fraction too early. The only reason he gets anywhere near challenging this beast in the air is because he's able to run forward and attack the ball rather than twisting and turning and following some guy.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

The player Burn is closest to is Azpiulcueta who he's a foot taller than. To me this is an inherent flaw in zonal marking. You don't use your height resources effectively enough

I can think of 3 times this season it has cost us. Last night, Burnley away and West Ham (Where we somehow had Sarmeinto marking Soucek). There are other times like Wolves at home where we have indirectly conceded at a set piece. Given we have only let in 18 all season it's the weakest part of a defence which is easily top 6 in my biased but also backed up by the stats opinion. Given all the data analysis at the club, they must be comfortable with the approach but I can't say I get it.

Last night people will point to Maupay for the goal but Veltman - who was otherwise excellent - could have done better at the near post. Ultimately all goals are down to individual mistakes I suppose, as good as Welbecks header was, I'd be moaning that he got it away with 2 defenders around him if I were a Chelsea fan.

 

[Swansman]

The player Burn is closest to is Azpiulcueta who he's a foot taller than. To me this is an inherent flaw in zonal marking. You don't use your height resources effectively enough

If the tallest Brighton player marked the tallest Chelsea player, the second tallest would mark the second tallest Chelsea player and so on, Dan Burn is taller than Lukaku and there it ends.
Second tallest Chelsea player is taller than the second tallest Brighton player. Third tallest Chelsea player is taller than the third tallest Brighton player and so forth, all the way down. So if it was all about height, Brighton players would lose 9 out of 10 duels if both teams were using their "height resources".

 

[Pondicherry]

This is a hybrid zonal/man marking system isn't it? Burn, Veltman, Moder and Sanchez are zonal. Bissouma and Cucurella are loosely near and far post and the rest in picture are man marking. The idea being to give you the best of zonal and man marking? Seems like a reasonable plan to me. Obviously the execution of it may be a different matter. The principle makes sense to me though.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

If the tallest Brighton player marked the tallest Chelsea player, the second tallest would mark the second tallest Chelsea player and so on, Dan Burn is taller than Lukaku and there it ends.
Second tallest Chelsea player is taller than the second tallest Brighton player. Third tallest Chelsea player is taller than the third tallest Brighton player and so forth, all the way down. So if it was all about height, Brighton players would lose 9 out of 10 duels if both teams were using their "height resources".

But look at the picture. Chelsea only have 4 in the box. Two of those are Azpilcueta and Jorginho. An unusually small number in this example, but the defending team will always have numerical superiority.

This strategy doesn't work as the blockers don't actually block. (A, because they aren't strong enough or good enough at it and B, it's a stupid idea which has nothing to do with football). It just means you have loads of players out of the game. They may as well be on the post or up the pitch or something.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

This is a hybrid zonal/man marking system isn't it? Burn, Veltman, Moder and Sanchez are zonal. Bissouma and Cucurella are loosely near and far post and the rest in picture are man marking. The idea being to give you the best of zonal and man marking? Seems like a reasonable plan to me. Obviously the execution of it may be a different matter. The principle makes sense to me though.

I'm not so sure it is, I think it's better described as zonal marking. The main "markers" Lallana and Maupay (MacAllister I think is just having a daydream) aren't really markers, there's no sense they will compete for a header. They are there to block runs and prevent attackers momentum. They aren't doing it very well for the reasons mentioned above, but also due to the high probability of giving away a penalty if you go too hard.

It's not worked all season. I think we need to look at it again

 

[Swansman]

This strategy doesn't work as the blockers don't actually block. (A, because they aren't strong enough or good enough at it and B, it's a stupid idea which has nothing to do with football). It just means you have loads of players out of the game. They may as well be on the post or up the pitch or something.

Sure, sometimes players fails to block their opponent. Sometimes in man marking players fail to mark their man. Sometimes on the pitch someones fails with a cross or a pass or a shot or makes a positional mistake. A change of systems might change the nature of failure or mistakes but they will still happen.

This happens regardless of systems. We've yet to see any team concede 0 goals in the Premier League.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

If Burn (turned with his side or back against the goal as you generally do in man marking on set pieces) marks Lukaku (turned towards goal) and they both makes a run to attack the ball coming in, Lukaku wins that duel 9/10 times. One of the many reasons man marking system on corners is a thing of the past, its such a huge advantage running forward and attacking the ball (with the intention of getting it in the same direction as the player is running) compared to turning or moving sidewards and trying to head it away from goal. If you watch the goal, Veltman is extremely close (reaching the same height) to winning the header against Lukaku, just jumps a fraction too early. The only reason he gets anywhere near challenging this beast in the air is because he's able to run forward and attack the ball rather than twisting and turning and following some guy.

All of the above.

Maupay needs to be a lot stronger in that situation though.

 

[dazzer6666]

I'm not so sure it is, I think it's better described as zonal marking. The main "markers" Lallana and Maupay (MacAllister I think is just having a daydream) aren't really markers, there's no sense they will compete for a header. They are there to block runs and prevent attackers momentum. They aren't doing it very well for the reasons mentioned above, but also due to the high probability of giving away a penalty if you go too hard.

It's not worked all season. I think we need to look at it again

It is a hybrid. First line are zonal, Maupay and others are the ‘blockers’.

Man to man simply wouldn’t work at this level - the striker movement is too clever.

 

[dazzer6666]

Sure, sometimes players fails to block their opponent. Sometimes in man marking players fail to mark their man. Sometimes on the pitch someones fails with a cross or a pass or a shot or makes a positional mistake. A change of systems might change the nature of failure or mistakes but they will still happen.

This happens regardless of systems. We've yet to see any team concede 0 goals in the Premier League.

Yep…….this

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Sure, sometimes players fails to block their opponent. Sometimes in man marking players fail to mark their man. Sometimes on the pitch someones fails with a cross or a pass or a shot or makes a positional mistake. A change of systems might change the nature of failure or mistakes but they will still happen.

This happens regardless of systems. We've yet to see any team concede 0 goals in the Premier League.

We can't prevent conceding more than 0 so it seems best not to try to reduce the numbers seems to be your philosophy. Great.

And I disagree that the failures are individual. They are structural, which I guess is difficult to admit if these structures have been implemented by someone on which you confer divinity. We've looked shaky all season and conceded plenty and probably are lucky not to have conceded more.

Got to admit i'm not dead set on man to man marking. I just think it can't be loads worse than what we're doing now. Probably if it were me, i'd take the blockers, who can't block so are basically out of the game and stick them on both posts. I think we'd have stopped a few of those we'd have conceded like that. I'd also stick Burn on the front post, where Veltman was, as a psychological deterrent to the taker from going near post. The would bring Sanchez more into the game.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

It is a hybrid. First line are zonal, Maupay and others are the ‘blockers’.

Man to man simply wouldn’t work at this level - the striker movement is too clever.

Well yes but can you describe Maupay as marking Lukaku? He's clearly got no intention of attacking the ball, which is what a marker traditionally does.

Other teams man to man mark. It's an option

 

[GREASED WEASEL]

What I would like to see is someone in the centre circle

Preferably Lamptey

Let's face it,he's not going to out jump anyone

But if there's a loose ball to chase,I'd back him everytime