[Albion] De Zerbi was NOT “sacked”

[Justice]

That's a good, well thought out summary of where we are and what has happened.
The majority of us think scouting, signing and selling players can be done easier than in reality.
A lesson learned on why we need to leave it to the algorithms and not gut instinct like most of us.

Is well thought out? Lump all the failures on RDZ’s shoulders and all the successes on the clubs.
Igor quickly turned into a favourite amongst Albion fans not quite sure why he’s getting slated. Dahoud didn’t work out fair enough we have no idea what happened behind closed doors.
Ansu Fati was always going to be a risk with his injury record, Barber was buzzing when the deal was announced so I’m guessing it was happily sanctioned by all parties before an approach to Barca was made.
As it wasn’t successful easy to blame RDZ for that one to.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Is well thought out? Lump all the failures on RDZ’s shoulders and all the successes on the clubs.
Igor quickly turned into a favourite amongst Albion fans not quite sure why he’s getting slated. Dahoud didn’t work out fair enough we have no idea what happened behind closed doors.
Ansu Fati was always going to be a risk with his injury record, Barber was buzzing when the deal was announced so I’m guessing it was happily sanctioned by all parties before an approach to Barca was made.
As it wasn’t successful easy to blame RDZ for that one to.

Loads of revision on this thread.

Igor was £15 million for a fourth choice CB who was pressed into action out of position because we hadn’t bought any back up for Estupinian.

I bet Brighton fans would cream themselves if it was rumoured we’d sign Yamal and yet that’s who Fati was at 16.

 

[Han Solo]

Where have I said exactly what you quoted about core group. Stop making shit up.

I would suggest that Gross Veltman and Welbeck are three of the best transfers ever so they weren’t unusual for us. We dominated the EPL in making transfers like that before our recruitment team followed the money.

The recruitment teams that signed Gross and Veltman/Welbeck aren't the same. Macauley wasn't around, Jewell was youth scouting (and Gross wasn't that young). Sure, perhaps Winstanley was secretly the main man behind every good transfer. But he also oversaw a fair lot of shite transfers, so maybe the club will be able to function without him? Only time will tell, I guess.

Is well thought out? Lump all the failures on RDZ’s shoulders and all the successes on the clubs.
Igor quickly turned into a favourite amongst Albion fans not quite sure why he’s getting slated. Dahoud didn’t work out fair enough we have no idea what happened behind closed doors.
Ansu Fati was always going to be a risk with his injury record, Barber was buzzing when the deal was announced so I’m guessing it was happily sanctioned by all parties before an approach to Barca was made.
As it wasn’t successful easy to blame RDZ for that one to.

Anyone who spends a lot of time in media saying he wants to sign players he picks himself rather than choices the club make is bound to get criticism when all the players he wanted failed to work out*. There's no way Graham Potter or Chris Hughton would have received a blowjob and people making excuses on their behalf if Ansu Fati would have looked like Aaron Connolly with them in charge.

* Except Igor apparently. Lets fill the team with players on Igors level and see where it takes us.

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

Anyone who spends a lot of time in media saying he wants to sign players he picks himself rather than choices the club make is bound to get criticism when all the players he wanted failed to work out*. There's no way Graham Potter or Chris Hughton would have received a blowjob and people making excuses on their behalf if Ansu Fati would have looked like Aaron Connolly with them in charge.

* Except Igor apparently. Lets fill the team with players on Igors level and see where it takes us.

You're rewriting history again. De Zerbi is on record praising the clubs scouting methods and finding great players.

Also the club were happy via Naylor to label Dahoud and Igor as RDZ signings. Not Fati, that was a last minute deal because Enciso got injured.

What De Zerbi wanted was a bigger squad. He didn't get it.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

You're rewriting history again. De Zerbi is on record praising the clubs scouting methods and finding great players.

Also the club were happy via Naylor to label Dahoud and Igor as RDZ signings. Not Fati, that was a last minute deal because Enciso got injured.

What De Zerbi wanted was a bigger squad. He didn't get it.

Precisely this.

If there is any truth in the fact that Dahoud/Igor were De Zerbi signings then frankly that is an even more damning inditement on the clubs data modelling.

i.e. they didn't have any experienced options to pursue and had to rely on De Zerbi to come up with some options.
More likely that the algorithm threw up Igor and Dahoud as possible options.

The fact that Dahoud was on a free, highlights the importance of the resale value, being a heavily weighted attribute, in our model.

 

[Flounce]

No the point of the success in the transfer market is because Tony Bloom wants Brighton & Hove Albion to survive as a football club. This is why Barber and Bloom in nearly every interview says the club wants/needs to be sustainable. Of course transfer income means investment, it has up to this point and will continue like that.

Brighton signed two players in the 24-29 span last season, Igor and Dahoud, both hand picked by the manager you wanted to keep around. There was also four younger players bought in for the first team squad, Baleba, Pedro, Barco and Verbruggen. Roberto and his followers want players in the first category, club wants players in the latter.

Your idea that "at some point the club will need to have a core group of players aged 24-29" has no basis in reality. The only ways it can happen is if the players are too bad to make big money & glory in a big club, or if Tony Bloom sells the club to either some American property developer or some Arab oil nation. Then maybe we can keep a Caicedo until he's 29. As it stands and with sustainability (securing the future of the club) being the number one target, we'll have to settle for Dahouds (we have a very good chance of keeping him until he's 29, good times).

The world also isn't Football Manager. Players don't magically turn into shit because they turn 30. Players are not magically shit until they're 24.

And last summer we signed Dahoud for free and Igor for £15m. So whats the problem? The manager picked these players, these players are exactly in the category people ask for, so why aren't they key players? Why didn't this allegedly magic "buy finished products" trick work out?

Also, if you think its standard to sign players like Gross for £3m, you don't know anything about football. Its one of the best deals in PL history.

The club didn't want him to be in charge of who is coming in or not. He wanted Dahoud, Igor and Fati, and didn't want Baleba and Barco. Give me ONE DECENT ARGUMENT why Tony should have left our player recruitment to De Zerbi and his (by his own account) Youtube scouting? What is it from De Zerbis transfer involvement that you think is so much better than the transfer involvement from the owner & club, whose ideas you clearly despise?

You do post some good well thought out stuff imo, whatever some of the haters say

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Why will we NEED to have a core of 24-29 year old players?

Do you know how many players Real Madrid used in that age bracket out of the 15 players that played for them in the Champions League final?

If they’re decent players, we’ll be fine having a core of players aged between 18 and 35.

Why?

because even Real Madrid and their rag-tag band of Champions League winning teenagers, actually rely on players in this range for the majority of minutes played across a season.

 

[Flounce]

You're rewriting history again. De Zerbi is on record praising the clubs scouting methods and finding great players.

Also the club were happy via Naylor to label Dahoud and Igor as RDZ signings. Not Fati, that was a last minute deal because Enciso got injured.

What De Zerbi wanted was a bigger squad. He didn't get it.

What RDZ wanted were players outside our model and got stroppy about it, hence he is no longer our coach.

 

[Bald Head]

As far as I am aware, this still hasn't been confirmed.

I'd read a suggestion that Marseille might have approached RDZ as negotiations with another manager they wanted (can't remember who now) had stalled.

Has there been any further reporting on this?

Not seen or heard anymore since.

 

[Han Solo]

You're rewriting history again. De Zerbi is on record praising the clubs scouting methods and finding great players.

Also the club were happy via Naylor to label Dahoud and Igor as RDZ signings. Not Fati, that was a last minute deal because Enciso got injured.

What De Zerbi wanted was a bigger squad. He didn't get it.

RDZ is also on record (because he contradicted himself every day) - many times - questioning the club and the transfer/scouting policies. He even brought his own "transfer guru", Salvatore Monaco, because he didn't believe in what the club did.

Dahoud was RDZs signing all long, he was open about it, has nothing to do with Naylor. The loan of Fati was attributed to De Zerbi until we failed to get any use of this monster talent. Igor no one really knew how it happened before The Athletic wrote about the process of the transfer and it became quite apparent that this too was De Zerbis choice.

For sure he also wanted a bigger squad yes. But he wanted it to be his players. Why would we loan out Sarmiento, Alzate and later Dahoud if he felt the 27 players he had wasn't enough?

Precisely this.

If there is any truth in the fact that Dahoud/Igor were De Zerbi signings then frankly that is an even more damning inditement on the clubs data modelling.

i.e. they didn't have any experienced options to pursue and had to rely on De Zerbi to come up with some options.
More likely that the algorithm threw up Igor and Dahoud as possible options.

The fact that Dahoud was on a free, highlights the importance of the resale value, being a heavily weighted attribute, in our model.

Even more damning than what? The results? The quality of the players brought in since Tony and his data model came around in 2009? The recent signings of Verbruggen, Barco, Baleba and Joao Pedro, do you think they're so bad that we need to abandon the clubs data modelling? Or what is the exact basis of "Data & Hove Albion", formed in 2009, not working well - even worthy of "damnation"?

Roberto De Zerbi spent his first season in charge complaining about how he was not used to not having a say in recruitment and that he also wasn't used to the clubs way of signing players. Team ended up 6th, De Zerbi kept talking, and someone probably said "fine, you can pick a few players if it can make you shut up for five minutes." OF COURSE the club had options to pursue.

And yes, resale value is important to any football club that has a plan to exist in 10 years. But he was signed as a key player first and foremost because 27-year-old Bundesliga substitutes rarely have resale value if you bring them to the PL and put them on a salary they're never getting anywhere else.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

RDZ is also on record (because he contradicted himself every day) - many times - questioning the club and the transfer/scouting policies. He even brought his own "transfer guru", Salvatore Monaco, because he didn't believe in what the club did.

Dahoud was RDZs signing all long, he was open about it, has nothing to do with Naylor. The loan of Fati was attributed to De Zerbi until we failed to get any use of this monster talent. Igor no one really knew how it happened before The Athletic wrote about the process of the transfer and it became quite apparent that this too was De Zerbis choice.

For sure he also wanted a bigger squad yes. But he wanted it to be his players. Why would we loan out Sarmiento, Alzate and later Dahoud if he felt the 27 players he had wasn't enough?

Even more damning than what? The results? The quality of the players brought in since Tony and his data model came around in 2009? The recent signings of Verbruggen, Barco, Baleba and Joao Pedro, do you think they're so bad that we need to abandon the clubs data modelling? Or what is the exact basis of "Data & Hove Albion", formed in 2009, not working well - even worthy of "damnation"?

Roberto De Zerbi spent his first season in charge complaining about how he was not used to not having a say in recruitment and that he also wasn't used to the clubs way of signing players. Team ended up 6th, De Zerbi kept talking, and someone probably said "fine, you can pick a few players if it can make you shut up for five minutes." OF COURSE the club had options to pursue.

And yes, resale value is important to any football club that has a plan to exist in 10 years. But he was signed as a key player first and foremost because 27-year-old Bundesliga substitutes rarely have resale value if you bring them to the PL and put them on a salary they're never getting anywhere else.

If you're going to get into pointless arguments with people about things that don't matter anyway, can you at least be more succinct in your arguments?

I'm getting an RSI in my thumb from all the scrolling past stuff.

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

What RDZ wanted were players outside our model and got stroppy about it, hence he is no longer our coach.

Yes. In key positions. Centre mid. Right right back. Right wing

There are not many successful Premier League sides without any fit 24-30 midfielders or right backs, and to find youngsters who can do that job means you need some great scouting combined with a lot of patience to see them develop.

What De Zerbi didn't have was the patience to see some of these players develop. He wanted Europe, now. We don't have that model so he's gone.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Even more damning than what? The results? The quality of the players brought in since Tony and his data model came around in 2009? The recent signings of Verbruggen, Barco, Baleba and Joao Pedro, do you think they're so bad that we need to abandon the clubs data modelling? Or what is the exact basis of "Data & Hove Albion", formed in 2009, not working well - even worthy of "damnation"?

Roberto De Zerbi spent his first season in charge complaining about how he was not used to not having a say in recruitment and that he also wasn't used to the clubs way of signing players. Team ended up 6th, De Zerbi kept talking, and someone probably said "fine, you can pick a few players if it can make you shut up for five minutes." OF COURSE the club had options to pursue.

And yes, resale value is important to any football club that has a plan to exist in 10 years. But he was signed as a key player first and foremost because 27-year-old Bundesliga substitutes rarely have resale value if you bring them to the PL and put them on a salary they're never getting anywhere else.

I appreciate that English isn't your first language.But try taking a little more time reading other posters posts.

I said precisely what the reliance on De Zerbi's choices was more damning than.
The algorithm may not be able to identify decent value in the established player market (any more).


Hope you're getting the dopamine hit you need from all this nonsense.
Enjoy the rest of your day .

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

RDZ is also on record (because he contradicted himself every day) - many times - questioning the club and the transfer/scouting policies. He even brought his own "transfer guru", Salvatore Monaco, because he didn't believe in what the club did.

By that rational you can say Potter didn’t believe in what the club did because he brought Macaulay with him.

Monaco left pretty quickly and most reports say it was RDZs decision to part company with him so he couldn’t have been disillusioned with the whole recruitment setup at the time.

 

[Han Solo]

If you're going to get into pointless arguments with people about things that don't matter anyway, can you at least be more succinct in your arguments?

I'm getting an RSI in my thumb from all the scrolling past stuff.

And what the f*** are you bringing to the discussion with this post?

We're talking football. We're talking about football business we have no say in and no power over. All of it is pointless and none of it matters. Thats the very basic reality and if we want to keep talking football it will continue to be the reality.

But I can try. This is how ChatGPT wanted to make the post you quoted more "succinct":
Sure, here's a more succinct version:

What exactly is more damning? The results? The players signed since Tony and his data model started in 2009? Are recent signings like Verbruggen, Barco, Baleba, and Joao Pedro so bad that we should abandon the club's data model? What's the specific issue with "Data & Hove Albion" that's worth criticizing?

Roberto De Zerbi spent his first season complaining about not having a say in recruitment. Despite this, the team finished 6th. Eventually, he was allowed to pick some players. The club obviously had options.

Yes, resale value is important for a club's long-term plan. However, the 27-year-old Bundesliga substitute was signed primarily as a key player, not for resale value, especially since his PL salary would be unmatched elsewhere.

Hope it helps your scrolling or whatever the problem is.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Someone’s started early.

 

[Machiavelli]

Generally speaking transfers of experienced players are NOT £50m though are they?
Outside of Chelsea, City, Arsenal and United, how many transfers of £50m are there?

The point of our success in the transfer market was to "compete" with the big boys.
So at some point that profit needs to be either reinvested in a different calibre of player or wages to retain the talent.

Understandably the club's model is what it is and it's worked well up to now.
But there is currently an imbalance within the squad, which is getting worse with the likes of Dunk/Gross/March/Veltman slipping from "at their peak" into "experienced Pro".

At some point the club will need to have a core group of players aged 24 -29 to build a first team around.
Hopefully that will be addressed and we will retain players more often.

I find this a bizarre -- flawed -- analysis. Yes, we've got players leaving their 'peak' but we've also got many entering it too. Just off the top of my head the following are entering into it: Lamptey, JPvH, Gilmour, Adingra and Joao Pedro. And that's without factoring in those that are already in it. The broad strategy (within which there are exceptions) is to buy young players and the odd experienced pro.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

And what the f*** are you bringing to the discussion with this post?

Light hearted comic interjections, oblique references to the Pulp song "Something Changed", and apparently I've introduced you to the concept of succinctness, which I'll take as a win.

We're talking football. We're talking about football business we have no say in and no power over. All of it is pointless and none of it matters. Thats the very basic reality and if we want to keep talking football it will continue to be the reality.

Some arguments are more pointless and repetitive than others. This particular debate is the footballing equivalent of Waiting for Godot. Nobody's going to change their mind and it wouldn't matter if they did.

I happen, in general, to agree with your perspective more than many others, by the way.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I find this a bizarre -- flawed -- analysis. Yes, we've got players leaving their 'peak' but we've also got many entering it too. Just off the top of my head the following are entering into it: Lamptey, JPvH, Gilmour, Adingra and Joao Pedro. And that's without factoring in those that are already in it. The broad strategy (within which there are exceptions) is to buy young players and the odd experienced pro.

The last four yes.

Lamptey’s broken. His initial pace has disappeared completely.

 

[Han Solo]

By that rational you can say Potter didn’t believe in what the club did because he brought Macaulay with him.

Monaco left pretty quickly and most reports say it was RDZs decision to part company with him so he couldn’t have been disillusioned with the whole recruitment setup at the time.

When Östersund sold David Accam in 2012, Graham Potter decided the money should be spent on data and training technology rather than buying new players. He went looking for the nerdiest nerd of data nerds to take charge of scouting and analysis. "I believe this really data oriented guy could do well at this really data oriented club" doesn't really imply a disbelief in what the club was/is doing. Which is why Kyle stayed for years while Salvatore was out after a window.

Roberto De Zerbi contradicted himself in nearly every press conference and interview. Covering all bases. "Very happy with the amazing club and how its run" one moment and then "we need 3-4 new players" quite literally in the next sentence.
And thats of course great for the RDZ cult that need to move a lot of goal posts and take a lot of U-turns to make him look good (and/or the club look bad).

They have plenty of pick from so there's always something. As seen in this thread currently with people suddenly claiming Roberto to be super happy with recruitment, and the clubs apparently shite data model being the cause of all the... pretty good results.