[Albion] De Zerbi was NOT “sacked”

[American Seagle]

The point being that the club are happy to "spunk" £60 - £80m on 4-5 unproven players, but not prepared to do so on 2-3 experienced players.
i.e. the focus would seem to be on profitability, not the needs of the first team.

Going back to my original point.
Barco was not signed on the basis that he would be a good signing for De Zerbi or the needs of the first team.
The fact he performed well, does not undermine what De Zerbi was asking for.

The trouble is that 2-3 experienced players will cost way more than £60-80m. Unless you sign free agents like Wellbeck, Lallana and Milner. But then you would complain they don't play enough and are injured.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

The trouble is that 2-3 experienced players will cost way more than £60-80m. Unless you sign free agents like Wellbeck, Lallana and Milner. But then you would complain they don't play enough and are injured.

Why would 2-3 experienced players cost WAY more than £60-£80m?

What I'm discussing is the Starlizard algorithm.
It is fantastic at finding value in the market, but seems to be more attuned on resale value, than the immediate needs of the squad.

In the early days it managed to unearth a 25 year old, playing for Ingolstadt, to come straight into the first team.
It also managed to pick up the captain of a European giant., for much needed cover at right back.

Experience doesn't have to cost the earth.

 

[American Seagle]

Why would 2-3 experienced players cost WAY more than £60-£80m?

What I'm discussing is the Starlizard algorithm.
It is fantastic at finding value in the market, but seems to be more attuned on resale value, than the immediate needs of the squad.

In the early days it managed to unearth a 25 year old, playing for Ingolstadt, to come straight into the first team.
It also managed to pick up the captain of a European giant., for much needed cover at right back.

Experience doesn't have to cost the earth.

You are cherry picking rarities there. Generally for an experience player with EPL or equivalent experience you will be paying £50 m and that is before you factor in wages. Look at how much Pedro cost - almost 30 m and he has zero EPL experience.
Yes, there will always be the rare Gross and Veltman but you can not guarantee them to be there every year.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

You are cherry picking rarities there. Generally for an experience player with EPL or equivalent experience you will be paying £50 m and that is before you factor in wages. Look at how much Pedro cost - almost 30 m and he has zero EPL experience.
Yes, there will always be the rare Gross and Veltman but you can not guarantee them to be there every year.

Generally speaking transfers of experienced players are NOT £50m though are they?
Outside of Chelsea, City, Arsenal and United, how many transfers of £50m are there?

The point of our success in the transfer market was to "compete" with the big boys.
So at some point that profit needs to be either reinvested in a different calibre of player or wages to retain the talent.

Understandably the club's model is what it is and it's worked well up to now.
But there is currently an imbalance within the squad, which is getting worse with the likes of Dunk/Gross/March/Veltman slipping from "at their peak" into "experienced Pro".

At some point the club will need to have a core group of players aged 24 -29 to build a first team around.
Hopefully that will be addressed and we will retain players more often.

 

[AZ Gull]

.... Look at how much Pedro cost - almost 30 m and he has zero EPL experience.
...

Well, apart from his 3 Premier League goals in 31 Premier League appearances for Watford (spread across two seasons), obviously.

 

[Guinness Boy]

You are cherry picking rarities there. Generally for an experience player with EPL or equivalent experience you will be paying £50 m and that is before you factor in wages. Look at how much Pedro cost - almost 30 m and he has zero EPL experience.
Yes, there will always be the rare Gross and Veltman but you can not guarantee them to be there every year.

It’s not “cherry picking rarities”.

Gross was 25 and cost 3 million, Welbeck was 29 and cost nothing and Veltman was 28 and cost around a million.

Three of our most important players in the last three seasons, without whom we’d have not achieved close to what we did. All over 24 and less than 4 million in transfers.

They aren’t edge cases, they’re what we were able to sign until Chelsea stole our recruitment team. They also aren't edge cases because you need a balance. You don't want 11 Welbeck and Veltmans and you don't want 11 Balebas either.

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

My opinion, he got a thirst for competing for Europe/Champions League and after that was never going to be happy with using veterans and youngsters to compete for top 10. Of course he would want several £30m+ signings to do so having lost his midfield and has to replace them with scraps and a free transfer.

I imagine the club knew this and were happy to push him out the door.

 

[Flounce]

My opinion, he got a thirst for competing for Europe/Champions League and after that was never going to be happy with using veterans and youngsters to compete for top 10. Of course he would want several £30m+ signings to do so having lost his midfield and has to replace them with scraps and a free transfer.

I imagine the club knew this and were happy to push him out the door.

Happy? No, but both parties accepted that the manager’s and the clubs ambitions did not align. It would have got untenable so a parting of the ways was the only solution. It’s a shame a compromise couldn’t be reached.

Looking forward to the next chapter.

 

[Zeberdi]

Well, apart from his 3 Premier League goals in 31 Premier League appearances for Watford (spread across two seasons), obviously.

And 20 for us in 40 games across all competitions last season.

Goes to show that £30m can buy a lot of quality even when it’s spent on EPL conditioned players, even in a market that favours attackers more than defenders or MFers

Goes to show even more that TB’s Starlizard doesn’t just scout unknown young talent successfully but can spot untapped talent in established players.

Generally speaking transfers of experienced players are NOT £50m though are they?
Outside of Chelsea, City, Arsenal and United, how many transfers of £50m are there?

Quite - but even with those Clubs, as with any Club, injury, age and time remaining on the contract are the biggest driver of depressing the market value of players. Not every player at the big Clubs will transfer for over £50 million.

Just taking Chelsea alone (which might be a skewed example admittedly) ; Conor Gallagher’s value would almost certainly be significantly higher if he were not about to enter the final year of his contract. If no extension is agreed, £46.3million is in line with the level of transfer offer that would satisfy Chelsea this summer. Nkunku, Fofana, Chillwell, Lavia and Carney have all depreciated in value while on the treatment table. Reece James, who was emerging as one of the world’s best right-backs before enduring two injury-plagued seasons, would be worth a lot more than £25.7million if he had been playing regularly for Chelsea. Chelsea’s squad value is going down at the moment, not up.

 

[American Seagle]

Well, apart from his 3 Premier League goals in 31 Premier League appearances for Watford (spread across two seasons), obviously.

I am not sure that is the experience the original poster was after.

 

[American Seagle]

It’s not “cherry picking rarities”.

Gross was 25 and cost 3 million, Welbeck was 29 and cost nothing and Veltman was 28 and cost around a million.

Three of our most important players in the last three seasons, without whom we’d have not achieved close to what we did. All over 24 and less than 4 million in transfers.

They aren’t edge cases, they’re what we were able to sign until Chelsea stole our recruitment team. They also aren't edge cases because you need a balance. You don't want 11 Welbeck and Veltmans and you don't want 11 Balebas either.

They are rare edge cases. What percentage of EPL transfers did they make up? It is a tiny fraction of transfers that are of their like. It is absolute fiction and nonsense to suggest they are not rarities.

 

[Han Solo]

Generally speaking transfers of experienced players are NOT £50m though are they?
Outside of Chelsea, City, Arsenal and United, how many transfers of £50m are there?

The point of our success in the transfer market was to "compete" with the big boys.
So at some point that profit needs to be either reinvested in a different calibre of player or wages to retain the talent.

Understandably the club's model is what it is and it's worked well up to now.
But there is currently an imbalance within the squad, which is getting worse with the likes of Dunk/Gross/March/Veltman slipping from "at their peak" into "experienced Pro".

At some point the club will need to have a core group of players aged 24 -29 to build a first team around.
Hopefully that will be addressed and we will retain players more often.

No the point of the success in the transfer market is because Tony Bloom wants Brighton & Hove Albion to survive as a football club. This is why Barber and Bloom in nearly every interview says the club wants/needs to be sustainable. Of course transfer income means investment, it has up to this point and will continue like that.

Brighton signed two players in the 24-29 span last season, Igor and Dahoud, both hand picked by the manager you wanted to keep around. There was also four younger players bought in for the first team squad, Baleba, Pedro, Barco and Verbruggen. Roberto and his followers want players in the first category, club wants players in the latter.

Your idea that "at some point the club will need to have a core group of players aged 24-29" has no basis in reality. The only ways it can happen is if the players are too bad to make big money & glory in a big club, or if Tony Bloom sells the club to either some American property developer or some Arab oil nation. Then maybe we can keep a Caicedo until he's 29. As it stands and with sustainability (securing the future of the club) being the number one target, we'll have to settle for Dahouds (we have a very good chance of keeping him until he's 29, good times).

The world also isn't Football Manager. Players don't magically turn into shit because they turn 30. Players are not magically shit until they're 24.

It’s not “cherry picking rarities”.

Gross was 25 and cost 3 million, Welbeck was 29 and cost nothing and Veltman was 28 and cost around a million.

Three of our most important players in the last three seasons, without whom we’d have not achieved close to what we did. All over 24 and less than 4 million in transfers.

They aren’t edge cases, they’re what we were able to sign until Chelsea stole our recruitment team. They also aren't edge cases because you need a balance. You don't want 11 Welbeck and Veltmans and you don't want 11 Balebas either.

And last summer we signed Dahoud for free and Igor for £15m. So whats the problem? The manager picked these players, these players are exactly in the category people ask for, so why aren't they key players? Why didn't this allegedly magic "buy finished products" trick work out?

Also, if you think its standard to sign players like Gross for £3m, you don't know anything about football. Its one of the best deals in PL history.

My opinion, he got a thirst for competing for Europe/Champions League and after that was never going to be happy with using veterans and youngsters to compete for top 10. Of course he would want several £30m+ signings to do so having lost his midfield and has to replace them with scraps and a free transfer.

I imagine the club knew this and were happy to push him out the door.

The club didn't want him to be in charge of who is coming in or not. He wanted Dahoud, Igor and Fati, and didn't want Baleba and Barco. Give me ONE DECENT ARGUMENT why Tony should have left our player recruitment to De Zerbi and his (by his own account) Youtube scouting? What is it from De Zerbis transfer involvement that you think is so much better than the transfer involvement from the owner & club, whose ideas you clearly despise?

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Had he SINGED for anyone yet?

 

[Change at Barnham]

No the point of the success in the transfer market is because Tony Bloom wants Brighton & Hove Albion to survive as a football club. This is why Barber and Bloom in nearly every interview says the club wants/needs to be sustainable. Of course transfer income means investment, it has up to this point and will continue like that.

Brighton signed two players in the 24-29 span last season, Igor and Dahoud, both hand picked by the manager you wanted to keep around. There was also four younger players bought in for the first team squad, Baleba, Pedro, Barco and Verbruggen. Roberto and his followers want players in the first category, club wants players in the latter.

Your idea that "at some point the club will need to have a core group of players aged 24-29" has no basis in reality. The only ways it can happen is if the players are too bad to make big money & glory in a big club, or if Tony Bloom sells the club to either some American property developer or some Arab oil nation. Then maybe we can keep a Caicedo until he's 29. As it stands and with sustainability (securing the future of the club) being the number one target, we'll have to settle for Dahouds (we have a very good chance of keeping him until he's 29, good times).

The world also isn't Football Manager. Players don't magically turn into shit because they turn 30. Players are not magically shit until they're 24.

And last summer we signed Dahoud for free and Igor for £15m. So whats the problem? The manager picked these players, these players are exactly in the category people ask for, so why aren't they key players? Why didn't this allegedly magic "buy finished products" trick work out?

Also, if you think its standard to sign players like Gross for £3m, you don't know anything about football. Its one of the best deals in PL history.

The club didn't want him to be in charge of who is coming in or not. He wanted Dahoud, Igor and Fati, and didn't want Baleba and Barco. Give me ONE DECENT ARGUMENT why Tony should have left our player recruitment to De Zerbi and his (by his own account) Youtube scouting?

That's a good, well thought out summary of where we are and what has happened.
The majority of us think scouting, signing and selling players can be done easier than in reality.
A lesson learned on why we need to leave it to the algorithms and not gut instinct like most of us.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

Generally speaking transfers of experienced players are NOT £50m though are they?
Outside of Chelsea, City, Arsenal and United, how many transfers of £50m are there?

The point of our success in the transfer market was to "compete" with the big boys.
So at some point that profit needs to be either reinvested in a different calibre of player or wages to retain the talent.

Understandably the club's model is what it is and it's worked well up to now.
But there is currently an imbalance within the squad, which is getting worse with the likes of Dunk/Gross/March/Veltman slipping from "at their peak" into "experienced Pro".

At some point the club will need to have a core group of players aged 24 -29 to build a first team around.
Hopefully that will be addressed and we will retain players more often.

Why will we NEED to have a core of 24-29 year old players?

Do you know how many players Real Madrid used in that age bracket out of the 15 players that played for them in the Champions League final?

If they’re decent players, we’ll be fine having a core of players aged between 18 and 35.

 

[Change at Barnham]

Am I correct in thinking RDZ hasn't officially joined Marseille yet as head coach?
It was reported last week that it was almost a done deal. I'm guessing it has something to do with his leaving terms from Brighton and compensation being required by the club?
Has anyone got a link to a recent article with latest news?

 

[Guinness Boy]

They are rare edge cases. What percentage of EPL transfers did they make up? It is a tiny fraction of transfers that are of their like. It is absolute fiction and nonsense to suggest they are not rarities.

They’re a high proportion of OUR experienced player transfers you moron, because we do things differently (or did until teams copied us).

There will also probably be some bargains this window because of FFP firesales and contract run downs as pointed out by @Zeberdi .

With Jewell, Winstanley and Macauley all having taken the snake route, the question is will we get them?

 

[Guinness Boy]

No the point of the success in the transfer market is because Tony Bloom wants Brighton & Hove Albion to survive as a football club. This is why Barber and Bloom in nearly every interview says the club wants/needs to be sustainable. Of course transfer income means investment, it has up to this point and will continue like that.

Brighton signed two players in the 24-29 span last season, Igor and Dahoud, both hand picked by the manager you wanted to keep around. There was also four younger players bought in for the first team squad, Baleba, Pedro, Barco and Verbruggen. Roberto and his followers want players in the first category, club wants players in the latter.

Your idea that "at some point the club will need to have a core group of players aged 24-29" has no basis in reality. The only ways it can happen is if the players are too bad to make big money & glory in a big club, or if Tony Bloom sells the club to either some American property developer or some Arab oil nation. Then maybe we can keep a Caicedo until he's 29. As it stands and with sustainability (securing the future of the club) being the number one target, we'll have to settle for Dahouds (we have a very good chance of keeping him until he's 29, good times).

The world also isn't Football Manager. Players don't magically turn into shit because they turn 30. Players are not magically shit until they're 24.

And last summer we signed Dahoud for free and Igor for £15m. So whats the problem? The manager picked these players, these players are exactly in the category people ask for, so why aren't they key players? Why didn't this allegedly magic "buy finished products" trick work out?

Also, if you think its standard to sign players like Gross for £3m, you don't know anything about football. Its one of the best deals in PL history.

The club didn't want him to be in charge of who is coming in or not. He wanted Dahoud, Igor and Fati, and didn't want Baleba and Barco. Give me ONE DECENT ARGUMENT why Tony should have left our player recruitment to De Zerbi and his (by his own account) Youtube scouting? What is it from De Zerbis transfer involvement that you think is so much better than the transfer involvement from the owner & club, whose ideas you clearly despise?

Where have I said exactly what you quoted about core group. Stop making shit up.

I would suggest that Gross Veltman and Welbeck are three of the best transfers ever so they weren’t unusual for us. We dominated the EPL in making transfers like that before our recruitment team followed the money.

 

[Baldseagull]

Am I correct in thinking RDZ hasn't officially joined Marseille yet as head coach?
It was reported last week that it was almost a done deal. I'm guessing it has something to do with his leaving terms from Brighton and compensation being required by the club?
Has anyone got a link to a recent article with latest news?

It's not done yet, but is still expected to happen.
Marseille spoke to him about the head coach position in the past, just before he was appointed by Bloom. Obviously, they didn't reach agreement back then, but this time, it looks likely.

 

[Han Solo]

They’re a high proportion of OUR experienced player transfers you moron, because we do things differently (or did until teams copied us).

There will also probably be some bargains this window because of FFP firesales and contract run downs as pointed out by @Zeberdi .

With Jewell, Winstanley and Macauley all having taken the snake route, the question is will we get them?

Of course not. The club will cease operations in the transfer market due to two people who left 2 years ago and the head scout leaving in February. Thats how things work.