[Albion] Dan Ashworth

[Springal]

We never needed a Dan Ashworth up til now and seemed to do ok

Ladies team doing well, U23s doing well. Have either of those ever been at a better / higher level? Pulling off signings like Mac Allister and getting a work permit accelerated?

Sure not all been great - but the games changed. You don’t want an upheaval when ever a manager leaves - because you lose most of the football operation that leaves with it

 

[GT49er]

What would we lose if TB sacked Ashworth tomorrow (apart from a pay-off the size of a lottery win) - would we notice any difference? Would our team get any less successful?

If someone can prove to me a different scenario, fine - but the fact remains that when he came in we were doing pretty well, second season in the PL and looking safe; reasonably comfortable anyway - since he's come in we've struggled.

 

[Elipsis]

This is a myth. Our net transfer spend is in the top 10 in Europe over the last 3 years. We have a shocking squad for that outlay.

This is true. Over the past 3 seasons our net spend is something like the 5th highest in England. Shows how bad our transfer business has been in comparison to the likes of Burnley, Bournemouth etc. Apart from Propper and one or two others we'll likely make a significant loss on most of these players.

 

[portslade seagull]

This is true. Over the past 3 seasons our net spend is something like the 5th highest in England. Shows how bad our transfer business has been in comparison to the likes of Burnley, Bournemouth etc. Apart from Propper and one or two others we'll likely make a significant loss on most of these players.

Trouble is we fish in the untried untested pool of players hoping they will hit the ground running and quickly get up to speed. Sadly 8n the majority of cases this has been unsuccessful and cost a lot of money. Maybe bringing in a couple of PL players would have had a better outcome

 

[Nobby]

Anyone that has a cockernee accent but pronounces A’s in a Northern fashion is untrustworthy IMHO

 

[Machiavelli]

Needs to go. Club has gone downhill since he joined.


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You know the difference between causation and correlation. Are you just kicking off, because we've just been beaten by Palace, the other results this w/e have been dire for us and, if it was possible beforehand, it's now impossible to deny that we're in one hell of a battle for survival?
If not, do you have any inside knowledge or special insight as to why it's Ashworth that is culpable for us 'going downhill'?
There are alternative analyses including (but by no means limited to):
-- we haven't gone downhill, we've been in or close to a relegation dogfight since we've been in the PL
-- it's the manager/s' fault
-- Bloom's moneyball strategy has left us glaringly short up top (which, on yesterday's offering at the very least, looks the best explanation)
-- it's the players' fault; those that got us promoted aren't quite up to the job (only Dunk remains a regular starter), whereas the more recent influx don't appear to have the ability and/or 'together'ness to haul us out of relegation (or, at least, a relegation battle)

 

[Machiavelli]

Maybe, but look at West Brom. And it is not as discrete a process as you imply. Look at Sheff U; promoted but play a number of players that featured last season and cleverly grafted new players into the system. They have evolved in a way that Brighton have not. Sure, it fails often too (Norwich) but so does balls out buying a PL squad when you do get promoted (Fulham and, possibly, Villa).

The issue for Albion is knowing who the best players even are; thus we get the current merry go round of match day selection. I don't blame GP for that; it is a function of not having stand out 'automatically selected if fit' players anywhere on pitch (exceptions Ryan & Dunk). Rotation is fine but Brighton don't rotate because they have no starting point to rotate from. I cant see an end to this in PL any time soon; contracts are too long, so we will make do and mend with what we have and doubtless struggle again. It is ceasing to be fun.

It will be an issue in the Championship too, but it seems easier then to clear out and start afresh. I don't want relegation but there is a chance that it might work better over a 2-3 season view.

Yup. All of this.

 

[Machiavelli]

This is true. Over the past 3 seasons our net spend is something like the 5th highest in England. Shows how bad our transfer business has been in comparison to the likes of Burnley, Bournemouth etc. Apart from Propper and one or two others we'll likely make a significant loss on most of these players.

Well, I think it's less relevant than you and [MENTION=316]Albion Dan[/MENTION] think it is. Far more relevant than transfer spend is player wages, which is about the most accurate predictor of position in the table. And guess what, we're in the bottom five of the PL on this. Part of the reason we're willing to spend more on Dutch/Belgian players (the same logic applies to Championship players such as Maupay and Webster) is that their wages are significantly lower than the likes of Gary Cahill, who Palace picked up for nothing but will be another that comfortably blitzes our wage structure apart. While we're on Cahill, he has zero re-sale value, whereas our purchases at least have the potential to do so (the problem with this is our squad's value will take a massive hit if we get relegated; Dunk, for instance, will go for c£20m, whereas if PL clubs want to prise him from us if we're still in the PL this summer, he'd cost about double that).

 

[doogie004]

Well, I think it's less relevant than you and [MENTION=316]Albion Dan[/MENTION] think it is. Far more relevant than transfer spend is player wages, which is about the most accurate predictor of position in the table. And guess what, we're in the bottom five of the PL on this. Part of the reason we're willing to spend more on Dutch/Belgian players (the same logic applies to Championship players such as Maupay and Webster) is that their wages are significantly lower than the likes of Gary Cahill, who Palace picked up for nothing but will be another that comfortably blitzes our wage structure apart. While we're on Cahill, he has zero re-sale value, whereas our purchases at least have the potential to do so (the problem with this is our squad's value will take a massive hit if we get relegated; Dunk, for instance, will go for c£20m, whereas if PL clubs want to prise him from us if we're still in the PL this summer, he'd cost about double that).

Dunk will go for around £50 mill u get get players like Webster for £20 mill [emoji23]


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[Guinness Boy]

You know the difference between causation and correlation. Are you just kicking off, because we've just been beaten by Palace, the other results this w/e have been dire for us and, if it was possible beforehand, it's now impossible to deny that we're in one hell of a battle for survival?
If not, do you have any inside knowledge or special insight as to why it's Ashworth that is culpable for us 'going downhill'?
There are alternative analyses including (but by no means limited to):
-- we haven't gone downhill, we've been in or close to a relegation dogfight since we've been in the PL
-- it's the manager/s' fault
-- Bloom's moneyball strategy has left us glaringly short up top (which, on yesterday's offering at the very least, looks the best explanation)
-- it's the players' fault; those that got us promoted aren't quite up to the job (only Dunk remains a regular starter), whereas the more recent influx don't appear to have the ability and/or 'together'ness to haul us out of relegation (or, at least, a relegation battle)

It's not insider knowledge but certainly having worked in senior management in corporate postions for a number of years I can tell you it is utterly destablising to just insert a "Head Of" or "Director Of" or "CXO" into a management hierarchy that is working very nicely already thank you. And I've been calling this out since Hughton went. Look at the threads in the immediate aftermath of his sacking where I discuss it with [MENTION=27447]Goldstone1976[/MENTION] or any other of the Ashworth threads.

The worst software project I ever did was one where there was a Delivery Manager, Project Manager and Lead Analyst all basically responsible for exactly the same thing, all reporting to one person who had it in their interest that the other three did a job that was just good enough to get by without any of them shining. It was stressful, frustrating and, frankly, a money pit. Now look at our recruitment. Ashworth is ultimately responsible (apparently) yet we have Potter's former "head of" at Swansea and Winstanley both still on the payroll. And, as you point out correctly, our Premier League recruitment has been SHITHOUSE.

I don't like the DoF role in English football anyway and there is plenty of recent evidence to show this dislike is not just the old causation / coirrelation argument when it comes to the men's first team, which is why 99% of us are here. Our most successful periods? When Poyet had more or less complete autonomy and when Hughton did. Our least? When we've tried to crowbar in this role. Poyet was led to do "something" that he hadn't been before, Oscar left within a season, citing recruitment and then we had the Hyypia disaster. Now we have a Head Coach who cannot pick the same players twice in a row and yet always has the same old flaws. That's either poor coaching or....well... you do the math.

When we go down - and we will - I will be perfectly happy with Championship football. I'd go as far as to say I'd prefer it. But Tony and Tony's bank balance won't. Someone will pay with their job. Let's just wait and see who it is, eh?

 

[Springal]

It's not insider knowledge but certainly having worked in senior management in corporate postions for a number of years I can tell you it is utterly destablising to just insert a "Head Of" or "Director Of" or "CXO" into a management hierarchy that is working very nicely already thank you.

When we go down - and we will - I will be perfectly happy with Championship football. I'd go as far as to say I'd prefer it. But Tony and Tony's bank balance won't. Someone will pay with their job. Let's just wait and see who it is, eh?

Why do you think naive businessman Tony Bloom made the decision then? Genuinely.

I’m actually not fussed if we go down, at the end of the day Tony Bloom has bankrolled us to where we are and presumably will continue to do so if we go down. The buck really does stop with him as only this week at Holbrook he gave the impression he was much more involved than most of us thought

 

[Chicken Run]

It's not insider knowledge but certainly having worked in senior management in corporate postions for a number of years I can tell you it is utterly destablising to just insert a "Head Of" or "Director Of" or "CXO" into a management hierarchy that is working very nicely already thank you. And I've been calling this out since Hughton went. Look at the threads in the immediate aftermath of his sacking where I discuss it with [MENTION=27447]Goldstone1976[/MENTION] or any other of the Ashworth threads.

The worst software project I ever did was one where there was a Delivery Manager, Project Manager and Lead Analyst all basically responsible for exactly the same thing, all reporting to one person who had it in their interest that the other three did a job that was just good enough to get by without any of them shining. It was stressful, frustrating and, frankly, a money pit. Now look at our recruitment. Ashworth is ultimately responsible (apparently) yet we have Potter's former "head of" at Swansea and Winstanley both still on the payroll. And, as you point out correctly, our Premier League recruitment has been SHITHOUSE.

I don't like the DoF role in English football anyway and there is plenty of recent evidence to show this dislike is not just the old causation / coirrelation argument when it comes to the men's first team, which is why 99% of us are here. Our most successful periods? When Poyet had more or less complete autonomy and when Hughton did. Our least? When we've tried to crowbar in this role. Poyet was led to do "something" that he hadn't been before, Oscar left within a season, citing recruitment and then we had the Hyypia disaster. Now we have a Head Coach who cannot pick the same players twice in a row and yet always has the same old flaws. That's either poor coaching or....well... you do the math.

When we go down - and we will - I will be perfectly happy with Championship football. I'd go as far as to say I'd prefer it. But Tony and Tony's bank balance won't. Someone will pay with their job. Let's just wait and see who it is, eh?

Totally agree with all of this!

It does make you wonder who has somehow used Jedi mind tricks to get Bloom to part with the many millions they have spunked in average players!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Why do you think naive businessman Tony Bloom made the decision then? Genuinely.

Long term strategy I would think. We're back to where we were when we wanted the same style of play from the Under 10s to the men's firsts and trying to buck the trend of paying a lot of money for star players who may not do the business. The problem is that the men's firsts had a very successful spell when the manager was allowed his head and was a bit more pragmatic than playing it out from the back. And instead of star players not doing the business we have very average players with obvious flaws not doing the business.

I'd turn the question around to you (and Tony). Why is it that Potter cannot just manage and Winstanley cannot just crack on with recruitment, without a guiding hand? Either they are competant or they are not.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

What would we lose if TB sacked Ashworth tomorrow (apart from a pay-off the size of a lottery win) - would we notice any difference? Would our team get any less successful?

If someone can prove to me a different scenario, fine - but the fact remains that when he came in we were doing pretty well, second season in the PL and looking safe; reasonably comfortable anyway - since he's come in we've struggled.

So true.
Difficult to argue this.


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[Machiavelli]

It's not insider knowledge but certainly having worked in senior management in corporate postions for a number of years I can tell you it is utterly destablising to just insert a "Head Of" or "Director Of" or "CXO" into a management hierarchy that is working very nicely already thank you. And I've been calling this out since Hughton went. Look at the threads in the immediate aftermath of his sacking where I discuss it with [MENTION=27447]Goldstone1976[/MENTION] or any other of the Ashworth threads.

The worst software project I ever did was one where there was a Delivery Manager, Project Manager and Lead Analyst all basically responsible for exactly the same thing, all reporting to one person who had it in their interest that the other three did a job that was just good enough to get by without any of them shining. It was stressful, frustrating and, frankly, a money pit. Now look at our recruitment. Ashworth is ultimately responsible (apparently) yet we have Potter's former "head of" at Swansea and Winstanley both still on the payroll. And, as you point out correctly, our Premier League recruitment has been SHITHOUSE.

I don't like the DoF role in English football anyway and there is plenty of recent evidence to show this dislike is not just the old causation / coirrelation argument when it comes to the men's first team, which is why 99% of us are here. Our most successful periods? When Poyet had more or less complete autonomy and when Hughton did. Our least? When we've tried to crowbar in this role. Poyet was led to do "something" that he hadn't been before, Oscar left within a season, citing recruitment and then we had the Hyypia disaster. Now we have a Head Coach who cannot pick the same players twice in a row and yet always has the same old flaws. That's either poor coaching or....well... you do the math.

When we go down - and we will - I will be perfectly happy with Championship football. I'd go as far as to say I'd prefer it. But Tony and Tony's bank balance won't. Someone will pay with their job. Let's just wait and see who it is, eh?

I've also spoken to [MENTION=27447]Goldstone1976[/MENTION] about such things, and am interested in input re corporate management. The big question is whether your (and his) experience/insight in certain businesses are transferrable into a Championship/PL club.
I don't think I follow what you're saying about our club history either. The DoF role emerged with Ashcroft IIRC. AFAIK, Burke (who you might be referring to) was in charge of recruitment rather than a DoF, and was certainly replaced by Winstanley as Head of Recruitment.
The rationale that Bloom offered for appointing Ashworth was that the whole process was becoming too big, especially with PL status, and that we needed to add that extra layer with oversight across football.
I'd want to hear something more than a report in The Athletic to ascertain that Ashworth is interfering in the selection process but, if he is, that would be overreach (and I'd as much want to know if he is acting off his own back, or doing Bloom's work for him).

 

[Guinness Boy]

I've also spoken to [MENTION=27447]Goldstone1976[/MENTION] about such things, and am interested in input re corporate management. The big question is whether your (and his) experience/insight in certain businesses are transferrable into a Championship/PL club.
I don't think I follow what you're saying about our club history either. The DoF role emerged with Ashcroft IIRC. AFAIK, Burke (who you might be referring to) was in charge of recruitment rather than a DoF, and was certainly replaced by Winstanley as Head of Recruitment.
The rationale that Bloom offered for appointing Ashworth was that the whole process was becoming too big, especially with PL status, and that we needed to add that extra layer with oversight across football.
I'd want to hear something more than a report in The Athletic to ascertain that Ashworth is interfering in the selection process but, if he is, that would be overreach (and I'd as much want to know if he is acting off his own back, or doing Bloom's work for him).

Yes, Burke, and his official title may well have been Head of Recruitment or similar. But, without raking over old ground, look up some of Poyet's and particularly Oscar's quotes from that time. The club were NOT happy when Naylor did that piece on Oscar.

 

[Dr Bandler]

Long term strategy I would think. We're back to where we were when we wanted the same style of play from the Under 10s to the men's firsts and trying to buck the trend of paying a lot of money for star players who may not do the business. The problem is that the men's firsts had a very successful spell when the manager was allowed his head and was a bit more pragmatic than playing it out from the back. And instead of star players not doing the business we have very average players with obvious flaws not doing the business.

I'd turn the question around to you (and Tony). Why is it that Potter cannot just manage and Winstanley cannot just crack on with recruitment, without a guiding hand? Either they are competant or they are not.

Totally agree. We, and any other club, do better when appointing a good manager and leaving him free to run the footballing side of things (including scouting staff) as he sees fit.

Just becuase we love Tony and are grateful for what he has done, and will continue to do for the club, doesn't mean he will always get it right as to club structure and decisions. It is a very difficult thing to get right, and does not correlate with the businesses he has had success with at all.

 

[Seasider78]

Unfair to pick on individuals but I would say whilst the long term structure and plan all looks very credible (which Ashworth is rightly part of) cannot help but think the club have taken their eye off the ball with the short term needs of the team.

 

[Seasidesage]

So this is all Ashworths fault eh? A bloke who has only been in post for two windows and has signed the following;

Maupay who I'd say is a success especially for his 1st season at this level.
Webster - who is struggling but is in his first season at this level. Clearly needs to cut out the mistakes.
Mooy - On loan the perm. Was rubbish yesterday but overall has done pretty well
Lamptey- Who knows?
Taylor Richards - Again who knows but he looks to have talent.

Obviously, the mistake was first losing two strikers late in the window and then not signing one in January. We do know they tried for a couple in this window so do all these people calling Ashworth out know why those deals didn't go through? Because unless you do you are talking shit.

 

[peterward]

So this is all Ashworths fault eh? A bloke who has only been in post for two windows and has signed the following;

Maupay who I'd say is a success especially for his 1st season at this level.
Webster - who is struggling but is in his first season at this level. Clearly needs to cut out the mistakes.
Mooy - On loan the perm. Was rubbish yesterday but overall has done pretty well
Lamptey- Who knows?
Taylor Richards - Again who knows but he looks to have talent.

Obviously, the mistake was first losing two strikers late in the window and then not signing one in January. We do know they tried for a couple in this window so do all these people calling Ashworth out know why those deals didn't go through? Because unless you do you are talking shit.

But Potter had his previous success with his own recruitment guy. DOF has hardly worked well anywhere, let Potter take charge of it and use others to fulfill his remit/nerds and not the other way around.

I was most certainly in the Hughton Out camp end of last season, but did he suffer the same fate of having dog shit signings foisteted on him?

Ashworth OUT.

Let the manager manage it.