[Albion] Dale Stephens

[Sarisbury Seagull]

Do you think Huddersfield and Fulham play the same way as us? I hope not, so I'll skim over that.

You have picked up on one stat to base your argument on, a narrative that you have changed from your posts some weeks/months ago when you were criticising him for very different things.

It's as if you have reluctantly conceded that he is actually quite decent in his distribution and decided to criticise him on a different front now. You also changed your opinion on how he played on Saturday, gradually through attrition of other posts wearing you down, to ultimately concede he was 'better' in the second half. It's like you are incapable of moving past your bias to give credit where credit is due.

There are players with as many, or fewer interceptions in the PL that are far better than Stephens, similarly there are those with more who I would not replace him with as I stated. It is such a narrow outlook regardless.

What really shows you up is suggesting he was culpable for two of Burnley's goals, which is pretty funny. I'll confess I haven't watched the highlights back since watching the game, but as I recall Barnes played a hopeful nothing ball when pressured on the touchline and Dunk slipped. I'd love to know how he was at fault for that one? Second goal, I remember Stephens getting a foot in and it bouncing fortuitously for their man. Hardly culpable for what followed? Perhaps he should have been stronger in the tackle there, but I'm sure they'd be a gaggle of dunces honing in on him should he have conceded a free kick in that position. You included I dare say.

So, as promised, Stephens is listed in the following positions compared to other Premier League players for the following actions this season:

35th for tackles;
92nd for interceptions;
154th for clearances;
110th for headed clearances;
175th for aerial battles won;
95th for blocks;
93rd for number of passes;
142nd for pass completion;
126th for number of touches;
162nd for number of through balls;
304th for number of crosses.

He is 21st for number of fouls committed though.

So if you’re so sure he’s so good, and that I don’t know what I’m talking about, please tell me where I’m going wrong because I can’t see it with Stephens on the pitch or clearly on paper.

 

[Nixonator]

You should have really watched the Burnley highlights again before commenting and sounding completely clueless. He was totally caught in no mans land and then mugged off by Barnes for the first goal but in fairness maybe you don’t have the technical football knowledge to spot that anyway. And then there was that obvious, pathetic challenge for the 2nd as you highlighted.

And I really think you’re confusing my posts with others? My opinion on Saturday has remained consistent, he was poor first half and better second, I gave him 6/10 in the player ratings thread immediately after the match. Likewise, my opinion of him has remained consistent all season. I don’t rate his passing particularly but it is not my major concern, that is his lack of defensive know how. Please go back through my posts and you will see this time and again.

And interceptions is one stat but I could go through others if you wish for me to highlight his weaknesses compared to other players? There are many.

"Caught in no mans land and totally mugged off by Barnes". "Lack of defensive know how". Absolutely hilarious, genuinely creased me up.

I have checked through your posts. Consistency is not high on the list with regards to your opinion on Dale Stephens I'm afraid to say.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest that you don't want to admit it, but we both know where you criticisms were for the longest time before you have now decided to criticise him on the basis of how a DM is actually utilised. So some small measure of credit is due to you for that at least.

 

[Nixonator]

So, as promised, Stephens is listed in the following positions compared to other Premier League players for the following actions this season:

35th for tackles;
92nd for interceptions;
154th for clearances;
110th for headed clearances;
175th for aerial battles won;
95th for blocks;
93rd for number of passes;
142nd for pass completion;
126th for number of touches;
162nd for number of through balls;
304th for number of crosses.

He is 21st for number of fouls committed though.

So if you’re so sure he’s so good, and that I don’t know what I’m talking about, please tell me where I’m going wrong because I can’t see it with Stephens on the pitch or clearly on paper.

I'm not sure what's worse, the fact you are judging players on volumetric statistics or that you have included number of crosses in your list.

Either way, you might want to hunt down the /minute or /game stats if you want something comparitively relevant.

Also, it's worth remembering that I have never once suggested that Stephens is 'so good' as you claim. He is a limited player, who fulfils his role in the team exceptionally well. He is a lower half PL player, and one day, maybe even this summer (if we stay up) he will be relegated to the bench and Kayal moved on. The player coming in is going to have to be very good though, players such as this are in high demand and short supply. We tried for Delaney and he ended up going to Dortmund which tells you the pedigree of player that is necessary to 'upgrade' him.

 

[Nixonator]

So, as promised, Stephens is listed in the following positions compared to other Premier League players for the following actions this season:

35th for tackles;
92nd for interceptions;
154th for clearances;
110th for headed clearances;
175th for aerial battles won;
95th for blocks;
93rd for number of passes;
142nd for pass completion;
126th for number of touches;
162nd for number of through balls;
304th for number of crosses.

He is 21st for number of fouls committed though.

So if you’re so sure he’s so good, and that I don’t know what I’m talking about, please tell me where I’m going wrong because I can’t see it with Stephens on the pitch or clearly on paper.

Here, I've done it for you. Picking the first stat on your list comparitively against the players you mentioned earlier:-

Tackles per minute:

Milojevic: .026
Chambers: .027
Capoue: .030
Stephens: .031
Billing: .035

Which shows you how statistics should be used cautiously, bearing in mind the best tackling DM on your masterful list is the one getting relegated at a canter. Moneyball doesn't work in football I'm afraid, as our owner has come to realise.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

So, as promised, Stephens is listed in the following positions compared to other Premier League players for the following actions this season:

35th for tackles;
92nd for interceptions;
154th for clearances;
110th for headed clearances;
175th for aerial battles won;
95th for blocks;
93rd for number of passes;
142nd for pass completion;
126th for number of touches;
162nd for number of through balls;
304th for number of crosses.

He is 21st for number of fouls committed though.

So if you’re so sure he’s so good, and that I don’t know what I’m talking about, please tell me where I’m going wrong because I can’t see it with Stephens on the pitch or clearly on paper.

Stats stats stats.

How about we look at all the Brighton midfielders?

Tackles won/lost
Stephens 35/16
Propper 25/20
Kayal 14/6
Bissouma 17/24
Gross 9/15

Interceptions
Propper 43
Stephens 25
Bissouma 20
Kayal 13
Gross 9

Blocks
Propper 28
Stephens 26
Kayal 21
Gross 13
Bissouma 13

Headed Clearances
Stephens 20
Kayal 15
Propper 10
Bissouma 4
Gross 3

Aerial Battles won/lost
Propper 35/17
Stephens 20/16
Gross 15/32
Kayal 14/23
Bissouma 12/19

Fouls
Stephens 35
Bissouma 26
Propper 26
Kayal 15
Gross 7

Dispossesed
Bissouma 21
Propper 19
Gross 13
Stephens 8
Kayal 7

Pass completion
Bissouma 83.3%
Stephens 83.1%
Propper 80.5%
Gross 76.2%
Kayal 70.4%

Chances created
Gross 42
Propper 13
Stephens 11
Bissouma 7
Kayal 4

Shots on/off target
Kayal 2/1
Gross 8/6
Stephens 1/4
Bissouma 3/15
Propper 2/11

Crosses succesful/not succesful
Stephens 1/1
Gross 14/38
Kayal 1/5
Propper 2/11
Bissouma 0/2

Assists
Gross 2
Propper 1
Kayal 1
Stephens 0
Bissouma 0

Goals
Gross 2
Stephens 1
Propper 1
Kayal 1
Bissouma 0

Through balls
Gross 2
Propper 2
Bissouma 2
Stephens 1
Kayal 0

Big chances missed
Bissouma 2
Gross 2
Propper 1
Stephens 0
Kayal 0

Sift your way through that. Seems to me if Stephens is as poor as you think then so are the rest of our midfield.

 

[Seasider78]

As many have pointed out that role is pivotal for the team as from that central position you dictate the tempo of a game.

My issue is too often it plays out like this

- defence win ball off opposition and we look to counter
- ball played to Stephens
- 1 touch to control
- slow turn
- looks up
- another touch
- plays back to defender or sideways to another midfielder
- attack breaks down as opposition have now settled with all players back behind the ball

This is the issue we are too slow in our build up play and Stephens is a huge contributor to that. He is doing a job and to the best of his ability but requires an upgrade in the summer if we are to improve our attacking threat and bring out the best in our wide players.

We are crying out for a player like Maddison at Leicester who gets the ball and picks out intelligent positive passes that help Leicester attack with real pace and pull teams all over the place.

Thats not saying Stephens is not giving his all or is doing his job to the best of his ability just for me a key position we need to be looking at to improve

 

[big nuts]

As many have pointed out that role is pivotal for the team as from that central position you dictate the tempo of a game.

My issue is too often it plays out like this

- defence win ball off opposition and we look to counter
- ball played to Stephens
- 1 touch to control
- slow turn
- looks up
- another touch
- plays back to defender or sideways to another midfielder
- attack breaks down as opposition have now settled with all players back behind the ball

This is the issue we are too slow in our build up play and Stephens is a huge contributor to that. He is doing a job and to the best of his ability but requires an upgrade in the summer if we are to improve our attacking threat and bring out the best in our wide players.

We are crying out for a player like Maddison at Leicester who gets the ball and picks out intelligent positive passes that help Leicester attack with real pace and pull teams all over the place.

Thats not saying Stephens is not giving his all or is doing his job to the best of his ability just for me a key position we need to be looking at to improve

Stephens and Maddison play in different positions. Maddison plays in a more advanced role than Stephens.

Stephens is very adept at the ball round the corner when it’s on and it’s the right decision based on the match situation.

He quite rightly slows it down at times when we’ve been under pressure as we badly need a spell of possession. Moreover, we haven’t got the pace or players to play a counter attacking team when Murray plays and Izquierdo has missed large portions of the season.

Hughton and all other managers at the club previously trust him. His decision making is sound as is his ability to read match situations and shield the back four.

Bissouma has far more talent but still needs to learn the game, hence why Stephens is probably the 4th name on the team sheet behind Ryan, Dunk & Duffy.

 

[doogie004]

Stats stats stats.

How about we look at all the Brighton midfielders?

Tackles won/lost
Stephens 35/16
Propper 25/20
Kayal 14/6
Bissouma 17/24
Gross 9/15

Interceptions
Propper 43
Stephens 25
Bissouma 20
Kayal 13
Gross 9

Blocks
Propper 28
Stephens 26
Kayal 21
Gross 13
Bissouma 13

Headed Clearances
Stephens 20
Kayal 15
Propper 10
Bissouma 4
Gross 3

Aerial Battles won/lost
Propper 35/17
Stephens 20/16
Gross 15/32
Kayal 14/23
Bissouma 12/19

Fouls
Stephens 35
Bissouma 26
Propper 26
Kayal 15
Gross 7

Dispossesed
Bissouma 21
Propper 19
Gross 13
Stephens 8
Kayal 7

Pass completion
Bissouma 83.3%
Stephens 83.1%
Propper 80.5%
Gross 76.2%
Kayal 70.4%

Chances created
Gross 42
Propper 13
Stephens 11
Bissouma 7
Kayal 4

Shots on/off target
Kayal 2/1
Gross 8/6
Stephens 1/4
Bissouma 3/15
Propper 2/11

Crosses succesful/not succesful
Stephens 1/1
Gross 14/38
Kayal 1/5
Propper 2/11
Bissouma 0/2

Assists
Gross 2
Propper 1
Kayal 1
Stephens 0
Bissouma 0

Goals
Gross 2
Stephens 1
Propper 1
Kayal 1
Bissouma 0

Through balls
Gross 2
Propper 2
Bissouma 2
Stephens 1
Kayal 0

Big chances missed
Bissouma 2
Gross 2
Propper 1
Stephens 0
Kayal 0

Sift your way through that. Seems to me if Stephens is as poor as you think then so are the rest of our midfield.

Hughton admitted in his pre match interview last week that for every good stat there is a bad one .
For me it’s what I see on the day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bold Seagull]

So, as promised, Stephens is listed in the following positions compared to other Premier League players for the following actions this season:

35th for tackles;
92nd for interceptions;
154th for clearances;
110th for headed clearances;
175th for aerial battles won;
95th for blocks;
93rd for number of passes;
142nd for pass completion;
126th for number of touches;
162nd for number of through balls;
304th for number of crosses.

He is 21st for number of fouls committed though.

So if you’re so sure he’s so good, and that I don’t know what I’m talking about, please tell me where I’m going wrong because I can’t see it with Stephens on the pitch or clearly on paper.

See below:

Hughton admitted in his pre match interview last week that for every good stat there is a bad one .
For me it’s what I see on the day

Your stats have no context Fareham. The top 6 must have fielded 100 regular players between them. There must be 340 or so regular players in the league, plus another 100 or more than don't play regularly. You've posted these and previous stats as some kind of vindication of your opinion, however they could easily be read as showing what a good all round player he is.

You don't rate him, neither does [MENTION=12452]doogie004[/MENTION] or [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION], which is their opinion, but trying to prove yours with random out of context statistics isn't working, as some of them are actually weakening your argument if you dig a bit deeper.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Hughton admitted in his pre match interview last week that for every good stat there is a bad one .
For me it’s what I see on the day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think stats are useful but they only paint part of the picture.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

See below:



Your stats have no context Fareham. The top 6 must have fielded 100 regular players between them. There must be 340 or so regular players in the league, plus another 100 or more than don't play regularly. You've posted these and previous stats as some kind of vindication of your opinion, however they could easily be read as showing what a good all round player he is.

You don't rate him, neither does [MENTION=12452]doogie004[/MENTION] or [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION], which is their opinion, but trying to prove yours with random out of context statistics isn't working, as some of them are actually weakening your argument if you dig a bit deeper.

Exactly.

 

[dazzer6666]

As many have pointed out that role is pivotal for the team as from that central position you dictate the tempo of a game.

My issue is too often it plays out like this

- defence win ball off opposition and we look to counter
- ball played to Stephens
- 1 touch to control
- slow turn
- looks up
- another touch
- plays back to defender or sideways to another midfielder
- attack breaks down as opposition have now settled with all players back behind the ball

This is the issue we are too slow in our build up play and Stephens is a huge contributor to that. He is doing a job and to the best of his ability but requires an upgrade in the summer if we are to improve our attacking threat and bring out the best in our wide players.

We are crying out for a player like Maddison at Leicester who gets the ball and picks out intelligent positive passes that help Leicester attack with real pace and pull teams all over the place.

Thats not saying Stephens is not giving his all or is doing his job to the best of his ability just for me a key position we need to be looking at to improve

Often that’s due to a lack of movement - ie anyone in space or moving into it - in front of him, not lack of any will or ability to pass forward. Our wingers haven’t been great at running into/creating space (March in particular will knock a pass to Stephens, then stand still and watch, it’s infuriating but I suspect he’s doing what he’s told). It’s different with Bissouma in midfield as he always seems to want to drive forward after getting the ball (often from Stephens) but he does lose it fairly often as a result.

 

[Seasider78]

Often that’s due to a lack of movement - ie anyone in space or moving into it - in front of him, not lack of any will or ability to pass forward. Our wingers haven’t been great at running into/creating space (March in particular will knock a pass to Stephens, then stand still and watch, it’s infuriating but I suspect he’s doing what he’s told). It’s different with Bissouma in midfield as he always seems to want to drive forward after getting the ball (often from Stephens) but he does lose it fairly often as a result.

Is it often? Not from the games I watch too often he goes for the completely safe option rather than an available but harder to execute one. He has limited range of passing and lacks vision of players runs compared to say Propper who regularly picks our attacking players. He also never drives forwards with the ball into spaces despite regularly receiving the ball with nobody near him. If he could carry the ball into the opposition half he would commit players creating pockets of space before offloading his pass.

He is great at winning the ball and laying it off in 10 yard passes which is fine for now but if we want to progress onto the next level in this division we need more than that from our central midfield

 

[Weststander]

Another day, and the NSC Stephens Saga rumbles on.

You’d think we’d just lost our critical match to Hudd, with Stephens the culprit.

Shirley there’s more to Albion life than the Stephens dog with a bone?

 

[dazzer6666]

Another day, and the NSC Stephens Saga rumbles on.

You’d think we’d just lost our critical match to Hudd, with Stephens the culprit.

Shirley there’s more to Albion life than the Stephens dog with a bone?

Well Bong didn't play, so the haters have had to find another outlet I guess. Whoever we sign, ever, there will always be a target.......

Sent from my H8314 using Tapatalk

 

[Is it PotG?]

Indeed. A bit of inconsistency sometimes....Hughton the Messiah can do no wrong, yet some feel he is incorrect picking one of our cornerstones in Stephens.


Another Barnes perhaps, not good enough for us?

 

[Icy Gull]

Another Barnes perhaps, not good enough for us?

I must have very low ambitions, I like both him and Stephens ...a lot!

However there is another player who always gave 100% that I wasn’t too keen on - CMS

 

[Bold Seagull]

Do a comparison between DS and Nemanja Matic over 2 seasons, and to be fair Dale stands up to the comparison:

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Hughton admitted in his pre match interview last week that for every good stat there is a bad one .
For me it’s what I see on the day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, quite.

Particularly if you cherry pick one stat and spin it as much as you can to fit your agenda(as the person I quoted was doing).

 

[Nixonator]

See below:



Your stats have no context Fareham. The top 6 must have fielded 100 regular players between them. There must be 340 or so regular players in the league, plus another 100 or more than don't play regularly. You've posted these and previous stats as some kind of vindication of your opinion, however they could easily be read as showing what a good all round player he is.

You don't rate him, neither does [MENTION=12452]doogie004[/MENTION] or [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION], which is their opinion, but trying to prove yours with random out of context statistics isn't working, as some of them are actually weakening your argument if you dig a bit deeper.

This. It's also worth considering that Stephens has been on the pitch for 1677 minutes this season. So using volumetric stats as comparison with players who have accumulated up to 2610 minutes is astonishing ignorance.