[Football] Coup in Zimbabwe ?

[ManOfSussex]

I think there was probably mutual admiration for a shared cause in the early days but post-apartheid S Africa changed all that. Mandela was magnanimous in victory, Mugabe was vindictive. Mandela was able to move from the mindset of a revolutionary fighting for a specific group to universally respected leader of a pluralistic nation and Mugabe hates him for his moderation.

Can't argue with that, but he also hated him, born out of jealousy too for the adulation and respect he received and the 'Father of Africa' tag. Mandela stood down after one term, Mugabe and others, like Kenneth Kaunda didn't and couldn't. Mandela would have learned a lot from those two in what not to do also.

Mugabe was vindictive but he had to be to survive for so long. As I've said, it's so ironic that it wasn't him who ultimately crossed the war veterans and army he'd kept onside for so long, but Grace's delusions of grandeur and ambition.

 

[Hastings gull]

Actually they both thought the war would be good for shoring up their positions, Agentina would thank the generals for returning their lost lands and Thatcher thought it would show the world that she was a strong leader and that we would not back down from anyone.

Except one vital difference. Galtieri thought that he would deflect from criticism at home of the poor economic situation by launching an aggressive invasion. Mrs Thatcher was well aware that public opinion on the island was overwhelmingly to remain as British and reacted accordingly to defend their interests.

 

[Beach Hut]

Except one vital difference. Galtieri thought that he would deflect from criticism at home of the poor economic situation by launching an aggressive invasion. Mrs Thatcher was well aware that public opinion on the island was overwhelmingly to remain as British and reacted accordingly to defend their interests.

Also Reagen offered the US 6th Fleet which would probably have wiped out the Argies in around one hour however Mrs T refused gratefully and stated British issue which we will resolve

 

[Buzzer]

regards
DR

True story - I once met Eugene Terreblanche in a petrol station in the Orange Free State, can't remember exactly where. He handed me a leaflet about an AWB meeting they were having that evening. When I said "Ek is jammer. ek kan nie Afrikaans praat nie" (Sorry, I don't speak Afrikaans) he had a little rant at me in Afrikaans, covered me in spittle and snatched the leaflet back. The Afrikaaners he represented are a strange lot with their love of small lapdogs and ironing khaki clothes.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Despite the resources and infrastructure - TIA. Zimbabwe had tribal and ethnic divisions, the legacy of colonialism, a war of independence and an agreed land reform programme that went nowhere, the very powerful and self perceived entitlement of the war veterans, the inevitable corruption of an African country and it's relegated global status post 1994 as South Africa rejoined the international community and became the accepted dominant regional power. Robert Mugabe never liked Nelson Mandela.

I can't help thinking what the late Sally Mugabe would have made of all this today - because it's Grace Mugabe who's brought this all crashing down for Robert Mugabe, by taking on and slighting the veterans. She's a bloody evil woman who's ruthlessness eventually crossed the wrong people and went too far.

A friend of mine in SA was a tobacco farmer in Zim and was one of the last to be ousted. I was under the impression from him that the land reform programme was starting to work pretty well in that many formerly white owned farms had become co-operatives and ownership and especially knowledge and skills were being gradually passed on. Perhaps I misunderstood.

 

[vegster]

or stalins ussr ? come on its not a game of genocide.top.trumps

Alf, looney started it.

 

[Buzzer]

As I've said, it's so ironic that it wasn't him who ultimately crossed the war veterans and army he'd kept onside for so long, but Grace's delusions of grandeur and ambition.

She wouldn't be the first wife of a leader who has been accused of using the marriage to force through more extreme policies: Marie Antoinette, Eva Peron, Imelda Marcos, Madame Nhu, Jiang Qing, Winnie Mandela even.

 

[Hastings gull]

She wouldn't be the first wife of a leader who has been accused of using the marriage to force through more extreme policies: Marie Antoinette, Eva Peron, Imelda Marcos, Madame Nhu, Jiang Qing, Winnie Mandela even.

Strangely enough, I watched a documentary on German TV last night about this very topic. Some of these names came up, along with Franco's wife.

 

[ManOfSussex]

A friend of mine in SA was a tobacco farmer in Zim and was one of the last to be ousted. I was under the impression from him that the land reform programme was starting to work pretty well in that many formerly white owned farms had become co-operatives and ownership and especially knowledge and skills were being gradually passed on. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Where it had taken place under the 'willing buyer, willing seller' scheme that was sometimes happening, but the reforms weren't going nearly far enough or quick enough for most. Compulsory acquisition was brought in and then the war veterans were very much behind pushing that into fast tracking, then the occupations all started. Once farms were occupied, an amendment was passed in the parliament denying the farmers the right to a legal challenge - that was purely the power of and the fear of the veterans. The entitlement of them really is something else - I've met a few. The fact that so many farms were in Matabeleland with a Shona v Ndebele tribal aspect to it, as well as the veterans getting what was 'rightfully theirs', it's a total inaccuracy to say, as people do, it was all just because the farmers were white.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Except one vital difference. Galtieri thought that he would deflect from criticism at home of the poor economic situation by launching an aggressive invasion. Mrs Thatcher was well aware that public opinion on the island was overwhelmingly to remain as British and reacted accordingly to defend their interests.

A mate of mine's dad was high up in th FO at the time. His view (and he is no labourite) is that Thatch was warned repeatedly about the Argies and did nothing because Galtieri was a right wing ally in the 'war against communism'. And she was incredibly lucky that it didn't end in tears. Sinking the Belgrano probably swung it....By contrast, Callaghan had a similar situation several times earlier and sent in a big boat (kept nearby), and the Argies bottled it. Thatch had to send in the fleet at the last minute from miles way. For this piece of doctrinair arrogance alone, she is shit in my yes; British troops died needlessly becuase of her. Remember that Prvate Eye (not a lefty mag) cartoon, Falklands War Memorial: 'they died to save my face'?

Back to thread, Mugabe is a disgraceful psychopathic **** who played the race card to justify thieving from the very people (the whites) who might have helped keep the country wealthy and stable, with redistribution of all that wealth easily achievable. Instead.... no lesson learned from Unganda (Amin thieving from the Asians who ran everything, then booting them out, then impoverishing the country). Mandela was by contrast wise to almost saintly proportions - demonstating that terrorists can become statesmen, magnanimous, forgiving, and resolute.

I'd like to see Mugabe treated like that other shit, Nicolae Ceaușescu. And his wife.

 

[Hastings gull]

A mate of mine's dad was high up in th FO at the time. His view (and he is no labourite) is that Thatch was warned repeatedly about the Argies and did nothing because Galtieri was a right wing ally in the 'war against communism'. And she was incredibly lucky that it didn't end in tears. Sinking the Belgrano probably swung it....By contrast, Callaghan had a similar situation several times earlier and sent in a big boat (kept nearby), and the Argies bottled it. Thatch had to send in the fleet at the last minute from miles way. For this piece of doctrinair arrogance alone, she is shit in my yes; British troops died needlessly becuase of her. Remember that Prvate Eye (not a lefty mag) cartoon, Falklands War Memorial: 'they died to save my face'?






Back to thread, Mugabe is a disgraceful psychopathic **** who played the race card to justify thieving from the very people (the whites) who might have helped keep the country wealthy and stable, with redistribution of all that wealth easily achievable. Instead.... no lesson learned from Unganda (Amin thieving from the Asians who ran everything, then booting them out, then impoverishing the country). Mandela was by contrast wise to almost saintly proportions - demonstating that terrorists can become statesmen, magnanimous, forgiving, and resolute.

I'd like to see Mugabe treated like that other shit, Nicolae Ceaușescu. And his wife.

That is his view and of course you have decided that that must be true - because that suits you? I spent that time with the Forces and have never heard this version. And Private Eye should be treated as gospel, should it? There were several warnings about aggressive Argentine intentions, but the advice at the time was that invasion would have been a step too far for them. But then Galtieri was desperate.
Your comments on the second thread -agree with every word!

 

[jakarta]

I see those doughty supporters of democracy Venezuela want Uncle Bob back, what a surprise...

 

[looney]

I wasn't talking about South Africa or comparing Zimbabwe to Chile or comparing African Nationalist Governments to Socialist Governments off the African continent for the purposes of point scoring. Are there tribal and ethnic divisions in Venezuela and North Korea or post-colonial legacy issues at all?

There may well be, I'm pretty sure those divisions exist in Venezuala but not scoring points, they are socialist, thats all.

 

[looney]

Alf, looney started it.

nope. all I did was state that this is what socialism is. Pretty obvious given how many times its been tried and failed over the last 100 years/

 

[alfredmizen]

By being such a virulent white supremacist. If he'd been a fairer man then possibly someone else other than Mugabe could have taken control.

i think thats looking tbrough rose tinted glasses , he no doubt knew full well what would happen , tribalism is the dominant political force in sub saharan africa , and it doesnt look like changing any time soon

 

[alfredmizen]

A mate of mine's dad was high up in th FO at the time. His view (and he is no labourite) is that Thatch was warned repeatedly about the Argies and did nothing because Galtieri was a right wing ally in the 'war against communism'. And she was incredibly lucky that it didn't end in tears. Sinking the Belgrano probably swung it....By contrast, Callaghan had a similar situation several times earlier and sent in a big boat (kept nearby), and the Argies bottled it. Thatch had to send in the fleet at the last minute from miles way. For this piece of doctrinair arrogance alone, she is shit in my yes; British troops died needlessly becuase of her. Remember that Prvate Eye (not a lefty mag) cartoon, Falklands War Memorial: 'they died to save my face'?

Back to thread, Mugabe is a disgraceful psychopathic **** who played the race card to justify thieving from the very people (the whites) who might have helped keep the country wealthy and stable, with redistribution of all that wealth easily achievable. Instead.... no lesson learned from Unganda (Amin thieving from the Asians who ran everything, then booting them out, then impoverishing the country). Mandela was by contrast wise to almost saintly proportions - demonstating that terrorists can become statesmen, magnanimous, forgiving, and resolute.

I'd like to see Mugabe treated like that other shit, Nicolae Ceaușescu. And his wife.

it must be true because your mates dad told you then harry ?

 

[JamesAndTheGiantHead]

It's not a coup, it's just banter.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

it must be true because your mates dad told you then harry ?

It may not be, sure. The source is impeccably not pro-labour. However, he could be having a macabre joke for no good reason (with his son, not me). It has been corroborated, certainly, but that isn't proof, either. I'm just sharing what I've picked up.

So.... feel free to correct me. What do you know that trumps my info?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That is his view and of course you have decided that that must be true - because that suits you? I spent that time with the Forces and have never heard this version. And Private Eye should be treated as gospel, should it? There were several warnings about aggressive Argentine intentions, but the advice at the time was that invasion would have been a step too far for them. But then Galtieri was desperate.
Your comments on the second thread -agree with every word!

I find it intresting that when some people read things they agree with, they are pleased, but when they read things they don't like they quesion the veracity. I admire the complacency of folk who content themselves with believing that all things with which they agree are true. It banishes doubt and provides a warm glow. Unfortunately in my job, without 'doubt' I'd be ****ed. And I am not impressed by the arrogance of the complacent. Or, if you think that sounds pompous, I can recalibrate the language for you: I am not intrested in what you think, only what you know to be true when you gainsay me. If you want to debate a point don't start off by stating that my position is based on what 'suits' me. You don't know me or what 'suits' me. And the fact you agree with 'very word' of part of what I wrote now makes me doubt its value.

 

[FatSuperman]

Where it had taken place under the 'willing buyer, willing seller' scheme that was sometimes happening, but the reforms weren't going nearly far enough or quick enough for most. Compulsory acquisition was brought in and then the war veterans were very much behind pushing that into fast tracking, then the occupations all started. Once farms were occupied, an amendment was passed in the parliament denying the farmers the right to a legal challenge - that was purely the power of and the fear of the veterans. The entitlement of them really is something else - I've met a few. The fact that so many farms were in Matabeleland with a Shona v Ndebele tribal aspect to it, as well as the veterans getting what was 'rightfully theirs', it's a total inaccuracy to say, as people do, it was all just because the farmers were white.

Indeed. And THOSE takeovers did not often result in a farm that was producing anywhere near the yield it should be. Zimbabwe went from being a significant exporter of food to needing to import food to survive. Some of the tobacco farms are now doing ok, but they are still a way off the original numbers. It's the same with the indigenisation reforms, where companies must be majority (51% in practice) owned by Zimbabweans. If you run a mine, every shipment (EVRRY ONE) out of the country must be signed off by the minister of mines.

I actually find a lot of their policies very well written, clearly some very educated people putting them together. I just don't think they are implemented properly. Corruption 'natch.

I highly doubt Mnanagagwa is going to be much better than Mugabe.