Council Tax Referendum

[The Large One]

In my experience this statement is complete rubbish.

Over the last few years I've had reason to contact a number of councillors across the political spectrum to deal with concerns I held personally and to assist in dealing with neighbourhood issues. Without fail, every time I have contacted both Labour and Conservative councillors they have responded quickly, politely and constructively. This can not be said of the Green councillors I have contacted.

One very good example was the attempt to increase rents for allotments. Labour and Conservative members responded immediately to my concerns and I got emails and phone updates from them. The Green councillors ? Not a word, not even an acknowledgement that I had contacted them ....... UNTIL ..... after the budget was rejected and allotment rents weren't increased. What I got then was a diatribe of emails from a number of the Green councillors accusing the Labour and Conservative councillors of ganging up against the Greens, lying and not understanding what they were trying to do. No addressing of my concerns at all. They did decided, for some bizarre reason, to copy in a number of Labour and Conservative councillors.

So in my experience the Greens only want to know your opinion if it supports their policies and plans. If these policies and plans are defeated then they turn into child like creatures throwing around accusations of being bullied etc.

EDIT - and you only needed to watch the ridiculous speech that Jason Kitcat gave at the first Green budget council meeting to realise he's a rude and arrogant prat who seems to think sixth form common room politics works in the big wide world.

Interesting rant, but short on substance and value. That rant is all about 'me, me, me', and not about the city as a whole.

The Greens do like to engage on just about every issue - almost to a fault, much to the mirth of Labour and the Tories, who believe that the decision was taken at the ballot box. Now that's arrogant.

As stated earlier, you are falling into the well-laid trap of making this a Green against Others campaign, which has little value.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Oh dear. What's motivating your question is what's more important, or what should we value more, money or democracy. The answer to this question is somewhere between £100K and £230K. The Argus decides to only inform its readers of the latter figure, which seems to support The Large One's claim that it is anti-Green, not to mention anti-democratic and small-minded. I would imagine that the former figure is more likely, if the referendum is combined with the EU elections.
Democracy hasn't been doing too well over the last three or four decades in developed western countries, and referenda are only a small way in which to tackle this developing democratic deficit. This referendum is a good move for the following reasons:
-- as The Large One and DavidinSouthampton have pointed out, Pickles has continued to hollow out local government, a process started by Thatcher. This referendum is the first challenge to Pickles' agenda.
-- when the Coalition drew up their cuts, they sought to offload a substantial chunk of the responsibility of these cuts on to local councils. This is what they gleefully called 'devolving the axe', which is a particularly cowardly act by this bunch of bullies that form our national government.
-- the recent history of local council elections in B&HA has been very tight, a kind of three-way battle between the Tories, Labour and the Greens. This has seen either coalitions, ad-hoc groupings, and minority councils. All of this makes getting policies through difficult. Being a minority council, the Greens cannot claim that they have sufficient support -- either on the council, or among the citizens who elect -- for either keeping in line with Pickles' agenda of cutting council budgets, or of raising council tax so that vital services can be provided. As a consequence, turning to the electorate to make this decision, particularly if it can be done more cheaply by combining it with another (ie EU) election, seems the best policy.
-- when we elect councillors and/or the parties they represent, they provide a programme or manifesto of policies that they want to implement. Inevitably, citizens will disagree with some of these, and agree with others. So, on certain issues, especially when situations become precarious (I'm referring to council budgets here) it seems reasonable that they should turn to the electorate for their verdict. This burden falls on the Greens even more because one of their long-standing policies has been to seek to involve, and respond to, the electorate more than the other parties.

I know that this position will generate a response. I will only respond to something that's dealing with one of the specific points raised, or the general point I began with, which is money or democracy.

Jason Kitkat said on the BBC Daily Politics Show this week that the referendum will cost £230,000.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/25812791

There is an argument that this referendum is playing into the hands of Pickles. If the referendum takes places and the result is a 'No' then Pickles would probably argue that a low council tax/council tax freeze and cuts are what the public want. A lot of the public probably do not want cuts to vital services but will look at their own personal finances first, but like any politician Pickles will spin it his own way.

If the referendum is indeed £230,000 as Jason Kitkat quoted, did go ahead and was successful in the Greens favour, how much would the cost of the referendum reduce the monies raised by the increase voted for in the referendum?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Interesting rant, but short on substance and value. That rant is all about 'me, me, me', and not about the city as a whole.

The Greens do like to engage on just about every issue - almost to a fault, much to the mirth of Labour and the Tories, who believe that the decision was taken at the ballot box. Now that's arrogant.

As stated earlier, you are falling into the well-laid trap of making this a Green against Others campaign, which has little value.

I wouldn't consider neighbourhood anti-social behaviour, drug dealing, lack of CCTV and poor local police presence a me, me, me issue. It affects everyone in the neighbourhood and Green councillors I've contacted about these issues have been about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Of course though, any criticism of your beloved Greens has to be false and incorrect ?

 

[Machiavelli]

Jason Kitkat said on the BBC Daily Politics Show this week that the referendum will cost £230,000.
I didn't know that. My figures came from various reports that I've glanced at.
There is an argument that this referendum is playing into the hands of Pickles. If the referendum takes places and the result is a 'No' then Pickles would probably argue that a low council tax/council tax freeze and cuts are what the public want. A lot of the public probably do not want cuts to vital services but will look at their own personal finances first, but like any politician Pickles will spin it his own way.
You might be right on this front. Only time will tell. Politics is about acting within a contingent situation.
If the referendum is indeed £230,000 as Jason Kitkat quoted, did go ahead and was successful in the Greens favour, how much would the cost of the referendum reduce the monies raised by the increase voted for in the referendum?I'm no expert on local council finance, and am willing to admit as much.

Thanks for this. I've responded to your comments above.

 

[The Large One]

Jason Kitkat said on the BBC Daily Politics Show this week that the referendum will cost £230,000.

There is an argument that this referendum is playing into the hands of Pickles. If the referendum takes places and the result is a 'No' then Pickles would probably argue that a low council tax/council tax freeze and cuts are what the public want. A lot of the public probably do not want cuts to vital services but will look at their own personal finances first, but like any politician Pickles will spin it his own way.

If the referendum is indeed £230,000 as Jason Kitkat quoted, did go ahead and was successful in the Greens favour, how much would the cost of the referendum reduce the monies raised by the increase voted for in the referendum?

The figure has since been revised down, as they wish to tie it in with the Euro elections, which would apparently save costs.

 

[Machiavelli]

I was just interested that's all. If you think that's important then carry on.

Would you like to know what I'm having for lunch too?

You seem to be taking my post, or perhaps especially the first two words, personally. Your question, while fine, was one that many on here and elsewhere would pose. I was merely attempting to point this out, and trying to respond to the thread more generally.
And what's for lunch?

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

The figure has since been revised down, as they wish to tie it in with the Euro elections, which would apparently save costs.

I have since edited my post and added this link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/25812791

He mentions the cost as £230,000 as it will be tied in with the European Elections. The point on the video is 1:46.

 

[Machiavelli]

In my experience this statement is complete rubbish.

Over the last few years I've had reason to contact a number of councillors across the political spectrum to deal with concerns I held personally and to assist in dealing with neighbourhood issues. Without fail, every time I have contacted both Labour and Conservative councillors they have responded quickly, politely and constructively. This can not be said of the Green councillors I have contacted.

One very good example was the attempt to increase rents for allotments. Labour and Conservative members responded immediately to my concerns and I got emails and phone updates from them. The Green councillors ? Not a word, not even an acknowledgement that I had contacted them ....... UNTIL ..... after the budget was rejected and allotment rents weren't increased. What I got then was a diatribe of emails from a number of the Green councillors accusing the Labour and Conservative councillors of ganging up against the Greens, lying and not understanding what they were trying to do. No addressing of my concerns at all. They did decided, for some bizarre reason, to copy in a number of Labour and Conservative councillors.

So in my experience the Greens only want to know your opinion if it supports their policies and plans. If these policies and plans are defeated then they turn into child like creatures throwing around accusations of being bullied etc.

EDIT - and you only needed to watch the ridiculous speech that Jason Kitcat gave at the first Green budget council meeting to realise he's a rude and arrogant prat who seems to think sixth form common room politics works in the big wide world.

Well, my experience of contacting councillors is somewhat different to yours. You seem to think that your contact with councillors is either on a par with, or more important than, a referendum. Why is this?

 

[Butch Willykins]

You seem to be taking my post, or perhaps especially the first two words, personally. Your question, while fine, was one that many on here and elsewhere would pose. I was merely attempting to point this out, and trying to respond to the thread more generally.
And what's for lunch?

Ham baguette with a scotch egg on the side. Was immense.

 

[Medwayseagull]

Has there ever been a poll which suggests people are in favour of a tax rise?

Milton Keynes a few years ago held a successful referendum on raising Council tax.

 

[Stoo82]

Milton Keynes a few years ago held a successful referendum on raising Council tax.

I would be very interested to see the turnout.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Well, my experience of contacting councillors is somewhat different to yours. You seem to think that your contact with councillors is either on a par with, or more important than, a referendum. Why is this?

Where have I suggested that ? What I was pointing out was that your statement about the Greens wanting to converse with the wider electorate more than other parties is, in my experience, wrong. Labour and Conservative councillors have been far more responsive and listened to concerns my neighbourhood have than any Green councillor has.

 

[The Large One]

Where have I suggested that ? What I was pointing out was that your statement about the Greens wanting to converse with the wider electorate more than other parties is, in my experience, wrong. Labour and Conservative councillors have been far more responsive and listened to concerns my neighbourhood have than any Green councillor has.

Probably because you have Labour and Conservative councillors way out there, representing your ward. That's what they're there for.

I wouldn't contact a Labour or Tory councillor for issues to do with my ward, because they don't represent it.

The things you wish to discuss are non-political, in which case, you're right to contact your ward councillors, and in the case of taking it further, you deal with council officers and/or executives.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Mister KitKat (won't use that phrase again to precede his name) has not only cited adult social care as a justification for the proposed tax rise, but has also said the money is needed for donations to charitable causes.

Err? Excuse me! I choose where my charity goes, not someone who probably has entirely different social issues on their conscience than me, and who also holds political views which I probably could not be more at odds with.

 

[Norman Potting]

Mister KitKat (won't use that phrase again to precede his name) has not only cited adult social care as a justification for the proposed tax rise, but has also said the money is needed for donations to charitable causes.

Err? Excuse me! I choose where my charity goes, not someone who probably has entirely different social issues on their conscience than me, and who also holds political views which I probably could not be more at odds with.

I suspect is is not so much a donation but more paying charities to provide services that would have previously been provided by Local Authorities - remember the "Big Society" and the supposition that there is a vast army of willing volunteers willing to plug the gap created by "cuts" - they will do is so much better - the staff will be volunteers!

 

[Medwayseagull]

I would be very interested to see the turnout.

1999 -just over 45% turnout - better than normal Council elections - 70% in favour.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Adult social care? I struggle towards the end of each month, I can't afford to be squeezed anymore. Especially by something like this. The council gets enough money from me IMO and there's no way I'm voting to give those fools any extra.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Is holding the referendum the same day as the Euro elections a wise move if the Greens want a YES vote ?

 

[worthingseagull123]

Adult social care? I struggle towards the end of each month, I can't afford to be squeezed anymore. Especially by something like this. The council gets enough money from me IMO and there's no way I'm voting to give those fools any extra.

You will have to see what looney schemes exist and the cost.

Cultural development of lesbain somalis who do not speak English. That would be £50,000 gone.

 

[Machiavelli]

Where have I suggested that ? What I was pointing out was that your statement about the Greens wanting to converse with the wider electorate more than other parties is, in my experience, wrong. Labour and Conservative councillors have been far more responsive and listened to concerns my neighbourhood have than any Green councillor has.

Read your previous post. I was expecting you to respond to my original email. You delivered. I was hoping that you might be able to engage constructively. You haven't done thus far, but such things can change.