Could be interesting... Dispatches C4 tomoorrow - Albion to be heavily featured

[BN9 BHA]

Have you thought you might be better off at home watching ID and Green Street?

What point are you making here? I don't see any connection with what [MENTION=7631]wellquickwoody[/MENTION] has written in #104 and two films about football violence.

 

[Guinness Boy]

So you know TWO openly gay people who regularly attend out of 26,000 odd and that makes us 'gay friendly' - LOL you really couldn't make it up!!

No. I know two out of the 50 odd people I regularly speak to before or after games. So 4%. Not huge but not 2 in 26000.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think we could go round all day countering points. Instead I'm going to tell you a story as to why I support bushy and Woody and not you two.

Homophobic chanting is specific to the Albion. Not coincidentally I would wager we are one of the most gay friendly clubs in the league. I know of two openly gay Brighton fans who go regularly and there's the Football Against Homophobia banner. So if the chants are designed to put off gay people (or offend them all) they are not working

Firstly, they're not 'designed' at all. They are also not an attempt to stop gay people going to games. They are just a combination of homophobic people being dickheads, and people that don't understand homophobia trying to be funny.

Back in the 90s I went raving and I went to dance clubs. I went on Fridays to the Zap which was officially mixed-gay. A lot of the punters were gay. A lot of the DJs were gay. Between them they talked me in to more full on nights like Trade on Tour and Wild Fruit. At no point did Io feel offended by the snogging men or high energy music. At no point did I ask the DJ to make the music less gay or leave because I was intimidated. I loved the fact it was so different to everything else in my life, but most of the time I restricted myself to mixed or hetrosexual nights.

So if gay people are going at the moment they must enjoy an element of the atmosphere.

There are anti gay chants at football games. Did you witness serious anti heterosexual chants during your clubbing days? No, of course not. Your comparison is moronic.

Reading your post, I get the impression that you are far from being homophobic. But you just don't understand it. Imagine a young man (let's say an away fan at the Amex), still growing up and confused about his sexuality, standing with his fellow fans while they sing anti gay chants toward Brighton fans. His 'friends' have even joined in. How is he going to feel? It can't be a great position to be in. Homophobic abuse does effect people and isn't acceptable.

Why SHOULD football tone it down? Why shouldn't it have it's own culture?

Tone what down? I haven't asked for anything to be toned down. Homophobia is not an important part of football culture, and should be stopped altogether.

Why should football be inclusive?

This may not be the same point that I was making before but I do wonder why the need for inclusiveness?

So do you want gay people to be excluded? From reading your posts, I'm thinking you don't want that. So you want football to be inclusive, right?

Football is a huge part of black culture but it's not a huge part of gay culture and as you can tell from the above I've met a few.

That's not relevant. Homophobia is wrong.

Shit, all you need to do is read post #149.

EDIT - Oh, I see you have read it:

Presuming this is a general point but this is kind of what I'm on about. Getting abuse from your own fans is inexcusable and I never once got 'straight abuse' at dance nights either. However, it seems that the chants from away fans or the general atmosphere haven't put Gay Seagull off getting a season ticket.

So what about the gay people among the away fans? They get abuse from their own fans when they play Brighton. Or any other time someone shouts 'get up you poof'. Not that it makes it ok if it's from opposing fans.

 

[Guinness Boy]

You make many interesting points, based on your own experiences of nights that were all the more enjoyable - thanks to the mixed crowds they attracted. I did much the same as you in a different city, and had equally fantastic & enlightening experiences. So why should football, in the year 2014, be anything other than inclusive if we can both see how great the benefits were to the dance scene?

I witnessed first-hand how the antics of the young, working class, heterosexual, tooled-up males virtually brought football in this country to its knees in the late 70's & 80's: with their bigoted & hostile antics in & around football grounds (& beyond). I can only speak for myself, but I'll be damned if I ever want to see a return to such fear-inducing times in this day & age. It was ****ing horrible. I know the multitude of changes made to our national game over subsequent decades provoke many mixed feelings & reactions to most of its fervent supporters, including myself, but now we have a wide variety of folk in attendance on match days who, in my opinion, are extremely worthy of one another's respect. Without them, our own club (for example) would rapidly shrivel & die - if it just decided to cater for those who uphold some of the less than enlightened values of the traditional working class supporter.

We're all individuals; we're all Albion. So why the Hell do some people carry on like their attitudes & behavior is somehow a blueprint for the rest of us to follow: & if we don't like it or oppose certain aspects - then we should all just piss off & watch a game of rounders on a local park of a Saturday afternoon? Frankly, without modern football's model of inclusivity, I'd have been doing something else with my time, energies & money a long time ago.

Good post. But....

The 'scary bigoted men' have been replaced by badly dressed pimply youths singing 'does your boyfriend know you're here'. They're laughable. Time to ignore them for the idiots they are and focus on things like Gay Seagull being intimidated by our own fans.

 

[Triggaaar]

No, no it wouldn't. The stadiums will start to empty when the game is sanitized and tickets go about £50 a pop for bang average seats. The atmosphere will disappear from games and the tv money will f**k off quicker than you can say 'political correctness'.

I dread the game being too sanitised too. I'd like standing at football games, beer in the stands, and for people to be able to jump up and down and swear through the match. I'd like it if we could all do that without racist or homophobic chanting though. If you think the atmosphere at football relies on the ability to be homophobic, you're simply wrong. If you think it's the thin end of the wedge, you're equally wrong. If there is a wedge, racism was tackled before homophobia.

 

[Creaky]

Of course I don't believe there aren't any. But what's your precise experience with the gay community? Did you spend about seven years worth of your life clubbing with a large group of gay people? Did you help a friend come out? I did.

Not sure of the relevancy of that question but the answer is no I didn't - my 'clubbing days' were in the '60s at which time the commission of homosexual acts was still illegal!

I did however employ two guys who were openly homosexual in the late '70s and a gay saleswoman in the '80s.

Neither should dictate to the other. Live and let live. However....

There can be no live and let live between those who enjoy behaving in a certain way and those that don't like a particular type of behaviour unless you segregate the crowd.

No, no it wouldn't. The stadiums will start to empty when the game is sanitized and tickets go about £50 a pop for bang average seats. The atmosphere will disappear from games and the tv money will f**k off quicker than you can say 'political correctness'.

I think you are wrong - I believe that the vast majority of fans at the Amex don't swear during a game nor make racist or homophobic 'quips'. If those who do behave in a civilised way were to stop going as some posters have suggested then I do believe the ground would be virtually empty.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Good post. But....

The 'scary bigoted men' have been replaced by badly dressed pimply youths singing 'does your boyfriend know you're here'. They're laughable. Time to ignore them for the idiots they are and focus on things like Gay Seagull being intimidated by our own fans.

I do indeed either ignore said sad-acts, or laugh at their piss-poor attempts at being well funnie n cleva, but there's still evidence that underlying bigoted behavior is still alive & kicking within our society - & thus at the footie too. Funnily enough, I too have been the target of unprovoked anti-gay language & threatening behavior towards myself by so-called Albion fans in & around match days, and each & every pissed-up idiot was well beyond the pimply mush & self-conscious c/w crap-kidult-threads stage. Those who know me on this board certainly wouldn't describe me as a shrinking violet, or a victim looking for an abuser, but I've asked myself the question 'do I really need this shit when I go to the football' after every unsavory incident. Sadly, I can understand the reasons why people, like Gay Seagull, end up becoming thoroughly disillusioned with the whole match-going thang - if the personal hurt & upset has nothing to do with whether the team have just lost another game. I just hope I don't get to that similar point of no return myself, but each time I'm party to unacceptable & aggressive behavior is another step closer to that reality.

 

[Baldseagull]

I might be an idealist but I'm not a vicar. I just think that if you aim for the stars and you miss, you might still end up landing on the moon. It's a 5hite analogy but as far as diversity, equality and inclusion are concerned, many seem to be lacking in respect, awareness and an appreciation of their impact upon others. I'd just love to see things change and know that the Albion and most of their fans can take some credit for it.

In my Utopian world, people who had insults aimed at them would not try so hard to catch them.
Accusing me of being Gay is only offensive if I am not Gay, but am homophobic. As I am not homophobic it does not upset me, no offensive language is used in "we can see you holding hands", it is just boring to hear it so often, but if they genuinely thought we were all Gay, they would not sing it, it is aimed at homophobic straight guys.
I think we should all hold hands up above our heads and sing "Can you see us holding hands?" at the start of every away game, but if we did, would we be guilty of assuming that all the home fans are homophobic and be insulting them with the pre-emptive chant?

The bloke who goes up to a kid and says "Does your Dad F**k you up the arse?" could say that to a girl child and is accusing the Dad of being an incestuous Peadophile, which is a vile and horrible thing to say, but he is not being racist or homophobic so is it ok?

 

[piersa]

How would you know - assuming you aren't anything other than a heterosexual, white male?

Where did I say it had to be about sexual preference or skin colour?

 

[happyseagull]

Just watched the Dispatches program....blaming the stewards and the Rozzers seems a bit harsh...the gay chanting about Brighton is disgraceful though but rather than chant a load of crap to opposing fans we should focus our voices on the players of the opposition...the players on the pitch won't give a rats arse about what the fans are singing to each other but if we sing about how crap an opposition player it can affect a game to our advantage as they may get wound up or hide....just don't do it to any good ones like Ross McCormack as he might put 4 past us but berate any mediocre players! Simple!

 

[Guinness Boy]

I dread the game being too sanitised too. I'd like standing at football games, beer in the stands, and for people to be able to jump up and down and swear through the match. I'd like it if we could all do that without racist or homophobic chanting though. If you think the atmosphere at football relies on the ability to be homophobic, you're simply wrong. If you think it's the thin end of the wedge, you're equally wrong. If there is a wedge, racism was tackled before homophobia.

I don't think atmosphere at football relies on the ability to be homophobic but I don't think "we can see you holding hands" or "does your boyfriend know you're here" are homophobic. I think intimidating an individual in their face because of their sexuality or asking young kids if they have AIDS is and it's what should be focused on. It doesn't even need a special law. Threatening Behaviour covers it perfectly. Atmosphere at football does rely, in part, on being able to take the piss out of the other set of fans though.

Controversially I also think we may have strayed too far in the fight on racism. And that's a MAY. I'm genuinely not sure. The example I'd offer is Liam Stacey. Were his tweets disgusting? Yes. Did they offend millions including me? Yes. Should he have gone to jail? Not for me. Jails are expensive and overcrowded and should be for the most violent of criminals only. The guy was kicked out of Uni and laughed off Twitter. Wasn't that enough?

 

[Guinness Boy]

I do indeed either ignore said sad-acts, or laugh at their piss-poor attempts at being well funnie n cleva, but there's still evidence that underlying bigoted behavior is still alive & kicking within our society - & thus at the footie too. Funnily enough, I too have been the target of unprovoked anti-gay language & threatening behavior towards myself by so-called Albion fans in & around match days, and each & every pissed-up idiot was well beyond the pimply mush & self-conscious c/w crap-kidult-threads stage. Those who know me on this board certainly wouldn't describe me as a shrinking violet, or a victim looking for an abuser, but I've asked myself the question 'do I really need this shit when I go to the football' after every unsavory incident. Sadly, I can understand the reasons why people, like Gay Seagull, end up becoming thoroughly disillusioned with the whole match-going thang - if the personal hurt & upset has nothing to do with whether the team have just lost another game. I just hope I don't get to that similar point of no return myself, but each time I'm party to unacceptable & aggressive behavior is another step closer to that reality.

Clumsily that's the point I'm trying to make. There's a real difference between being 18 and not being able to hold your beer and just joining in with a song that everyone else is singing and choosing to threaten an individual. I'm against homophobia in football and life but I think we focus on the wrong battles in the wrong way.

 

[Guinness Boy]

To add to the two replies above.

I feel I'm spamming this thread and I've got work to do today so this is my last word on it. However I do feel I've been taken out of context and had some assumptions made about me (not untypical on NSC) so it would be good to sum up my position in one post rather than keep replying.

1) I find the thought of arrest for using fairly mild language in a fairly general way deeply worrying from a civil liberties / human rights perspective. I don't ever use 'poof' or the N word and anyone who knows me would confirm that. However I think someone should be able to make a character in a story or sketch or song say them without fear of arrest.

2) Eradicating threatening behaviour from football is entirely laudable but that's what we should be doing. Not picking off the weak and stupid. The chants "we can see you holding hands" and "does your boyfriend know you're here?" are particularly stupid given I have seen hetrosexual couples holding hands at football and one of the two gay fans I know is a lesbian! Besides if legislating against the devoid of wit worked this thread and the documentary it discusses wouldn't exist because the chants would have stopped.

3) Most controversially (and where I side with two people I normally disagree with) in any inclusive society white working class culture should be just as important as anyone else's. An inclusive and diverse society should recognise that there are certain things that certain people won't like and be accepting of each individual activity rather than trying to homogenize society.

 

[dougdeep]

Hello? Is this the drama queen thread?

 

[Triggaaar]

I don't think atmosphere at football relies on the ability to be homophobic but I don't think "we can see you holding hands" or "does your boyfriend know you're here" are homophobic.

So you don't need to worry about the atmosphere being ruined by political correctness. I expect that most people singing such chants don't mean any harm by it, but no doubt plenty do. And I believe these chants are the thin end of the wedge. When fans sing that together, those that are homophobic are more likely to say something else too. Allowing songs like that makes it appear to be acceptable.

I think intimidating an individual in their face because of their sexuality or asking young kids if they have AIDS is and it's what should be focused on.

The anti homophobic stance is tackling these individual events too. Everton fans used to sing 'Everton are white'. Do you think that's acceptable, or that they'd get away with it now - after all, it's not aimed at one specific black player? People have woken up to that fact that racism isn't ok, so the individual incidents at football games have hugely declined, and it would be good if the same thing happened with homophobia.

Atmosphere at football does rely, in part, on being able to take the piss out of the other set of fans though.

Yes, but we can do that without being racist or homophobic.

Controversially I also think we may have strayed too far in the fight on racism. And that's a MAY. I'm genuinely not sure. The example I'd offer is Liam Stacey. Were his tweets disgusting? Yes. Did they offend millions including me? Yes. Should he have gone to jail? Not for me. Jails are expensive and overcrowded and should be for the most violent of criminals only. The guy was kicked out of Uni and laughed off Twitter. Wasn't that enough?

He was given a 56 day sentence, not really enough to clog up the prisons. Going to prison for the remarks does seem extreme, but I didn't hear the details of the case. If racism wasn't illegal, the attitudes in this country wouldn't have changed to much, and he wouldn't have got laughed off twitter, because while many would have been against his views, many other racists would have joined in, knowing they're free from prosecution.

1) I find the thought of arrest for using fairly mild language in a fairly general way deeply worrying from a civil liberties / human rights perspective. I don't ever use 'poof' or the N word and anyone who knows me would confirm that. However I think someone should be able to make a character in a story or sketch or song say them without fear of arrest.

And people are allowed to make characters that are racist and homophobic. People like Nick Griffin are allowed to express their views. Clergy are allowed to say that in their opinion, homosexuality is wrong. So I don't think our human rights are being effected here.

in any inclusive society white working class culture should be just as important as anyone else's. An inclusive and diverse society should recognise that there are certain things that certain people won't like and be accepting of each individual activity rather than trying to homogenize society.

You're suggesting that our society doesn't accept the working class? Obviously that's nonsense. Our working classes are celebrated in cultural references and the media. I'm not sure you've managed to engage your brain in this debate. For a start, racism and homophobia are not problems exclusively among the working class. But if they were, you'd think that working class people should be able to be racist, because we should accept their bigotry?

 

[pornomagboy]

The easiest way to stop racist and homophobic chanting is for the FA to punish the club's with a points deduction for failing to control fans,

 

[Triggaaar]

The easiest way to stop racist and homophobic chanting is for the FA to punish the club's with a points deduction for failing to control fans,

we're going to win the league, we're going to win the league...

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Where did I say it had to be about sexual preference or skin colour?

Good grief.

 

[Guinness Boy]

You're suggesting that our society doesn't accept the working class? Obviously that's nonsense. Our working classes are celebrated in cultural references and the media. I'm not sure you've managed to engage your brain in this debate. For a start, racism and homophobia are not problems exclusively among the working class. But if they were, you'd think that working class people should be able to be racist, because we should accept their bigotry?

Sorry, I hate it when people bow out of threads and then come back but I'm going to do it anyway because you're talking nonsense here. From Benefit Street to Chav jokes the white working class are demonized and mocked by a snobbish media. It's something people across the political divide from Owen Jones and Irvine Welsh to [MENTION=11956]bushy[/MENTION] agree on.

Football is historically a working class male game, the one bit of fun you had before the factory or mine opened back up. That this is now diluted has changed it and, in some respects, changed it for the worst.

 

[piersa]

Good grief.