[News] Could be a very big day for RNLI donations

[hoof hearted]

To apply for asylum in the UK, you must have left your country of origin, and be unable to go back for fear of persecution. People must be physically present in the UK to claim asylum. It is not possible to apply for asylum via a UK embassy, or to apply for a visa for the purpose of coming to seek asylum in the UK.

If they are from a country that requires a Visa of some sort for entry to the UK, and they do not have a Visa, they cannot get in through normal routes. However, if they become recognised as refugees, no offence is committed in any case. So, it is legal to enter the UK with insufficient documentation if you later achieve refugee status, it is not illegal entry until that status has been determined.

That's fine then for those that enter the UK with the intention of applying for asylum. I'm not suggesting they should be treated like criminals (unless they enter the UK without a valid visa and have no intention of applying for asyluim...in which case they are breaking the law), only that this country doesn't have the resources to allow everyone and anyone to come here. And it would be silly to allow anyone - hence why there's a process to go though to be allowed to stay here legally. If they get their asylum request granted then good luck to them and the Government and local authorities should do everything they can to help them settle and integrate into the community.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That's fine then for those that enter the UK with the intention of applying for asylum. I'm not suggesting they should be treated like criminals (unless they enter the UK without a valid visa and have no intention of applying for asyluim...in which case they are breaking the law), only that this country doesn't have the resources to allow everyone and anyone to come here. And it would be silly to allow anyone - hence why there's a process to go though to be allowed to stay here legally. If they get their asylum request granted then good luck to them and the Government and local authorities should do everything they can to help them settle and integrate into the community.

Only last week I was reading about chronic shortages in the hospitality sector and lorry drivers to name just two sectors. Seems to me you do need some extra people?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Some will be economic migrants.

I struggle to get annoyed about it. Just makes me feel fortunate really.

I wasn't born into an impoverished country. My parents didn't struggle to put food on the table. I wasn't going to die from a curable disease. I didn't have to work in a factory from the age of five. We didn't have to worry about insurgents destroying our village or me being kidnapped to become a child soldier. There was no exploitation of our labour by wealthier nations who wanted cheap shoes and other products. So I've never felt the desire to go elsewhere. Although until last year that facility was available to me without challenge.

If some of the above had applied to me I might just desperately try to do so. The hope that I could be like those others who had all that privilege just because they fell out the right vagina. I'd feel it was unfair in a universal sense. Why them and not me ? And all of this discrimination overseen by someone who's family did manage to achieve a new life in the way I desire, and didn't go to the neighbouring country.

No, I can't get upset about those who make the crossing, I'm just glad it wasn't me.

When some local people were up in arms about the council taking Syrian refugees, after all that happened it made my gut wrench. Two of my best friends in my early years were from Ghana and Chile. We were close to a Sudanese family. Sorry, I find it hard to be hostile. When I grew up I saw them as equal. Maybe not so much as an adult, because by then my mind had been distorted by messages of antipathy. But I'm glad I've challenged it and those days have slowly come back.

Agree with much of that and your response makes a pleasant change from all the hysterical fannies itching for a binfest last night (some still carrying on today I see).

We are Indeed fortunate compared to many and in some ways I admire their tenacity and determination to find a better life but believe we should be concerned about people crossing the Channel risking their and life boat crews lives. Many people have died in the past and sadly more will do so as long as people believe its a productive route to get here. Let's hope it doesn't take bodies washing up on the beach before we realise simply saying nothing to worry about/more the merrier isn't the best way forward.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

 

[hoof hearted]

Only last week I was reading about chronic shortages in the hospitality sector and lorry drivers to name just two sectors. Seems to me you do need some extra people?

That's why there is (or should be) a skills shortage list for any immigration process. If I wanted to emmigrate to New Zealand, I would need to fill out a form and state what skills I have (among other things) and then my application would be considered based on the points system (e.g. the more the skill is in demand, the more points that's worth).

 

[hoof hearted]

Well resource it. Provide legitimate routes into our great country. Process applications in a timely manner. Treat desperate people with humanity and dignity. Show our country at its best. We have sufficient resources, we choose not to use them. And the resources we have do not appear to be used either efficiently or humanely. Don’t point the finger at the poor sods in the boats, or those trying to stop their fellow human beings from drowning. Point the finger at those in positions of responsibility who prefer culture war to solving an actual real life problem. We are a mature democracy. We can do this.

You keep saying 'resource it'. but how? The country is in huge debt and most public services are already under resourced, including the border force and the NHS is stretched (that's on top of having to deal with the covid pandemic) and it's only going to get worse, especially if you have an open door policy (the EU is one thing but apply an open door policy for those coming from everywhere in the world and you would get a hell of a lot more people wanting to live here).

You're right the way the Government treats asylum seekers is terrible though and must be improved and other ways of applying for asylum should be explored. I never voted for this Government and can't wait to see the back of them (although I doubt the next lot will be much more competent).

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You keep saying 'resource it'. but how? The country is in huge debt and most public services are already under resourced, including the border force and the NHS is stretched (that's on top of having to deal with the covid pandemic) and it's only going to get worse, especially if you have an open door policy (the EU is one thing but apply an open door policy for those coming from everywhere in the world and you would get a hell of a lot more people wanting to live here).

You're right the way the Government treats asylum seekers is terrible though and must be improved and other ways of applying for asylum should be explored. I never voted for this Government and can't wait to see the back of them (although I doubt the next lot will be much more competent).

The country is in huge debt & most public services are already under resourced, but there’s plenty of money for friends, donors, mates & PPE manufacturers.

I suspect a different government (I don’t care which party, green red or orange) might resource the right things like public services.
A lack of sleaze would help.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

You keep saying 'resource it'. but how? The country is in huge debt and most public services are already under resourced, including the border force and the NHS is stretched (that's on top of having to deal with the covid pandemic) and it's only going to get worse, especially if you have an open door policy (the EU is one thing but apply an open door policy for those coming from everywhere in the world and you would get a hell of a lot more people wanting to live here).

You're right the way the Government treats asylum seekers is terrible though and must be improved and other ways of applying for asylum should be explored. I never voted for this Government and can't wait to see the back of them (although I doubt the next lot will be much more competent).

If I give you a million pounds at a pound a second it will take 11 days. If I give you a billion pounds at a pound a second it takes 31 years. For Track and Trace we spend this 34 times over. We are a rich economy. We can make the choice.

No one but you is talking about an open door policy. I’ve no idea why. We just need proper policies that treat people humanely and with respect. It’s not straight forward distinguishing between refugees and economic migrants but it’s not beyond us. Have faith.

 

[hoof hearted]

If I give you a million pounds at a pound a second it will take 11 days. If I give you a billion pounds at a pound a second it takes 31 years. For Track and Trace we spend this 34 times over. We are a rich economy. We can make the choice.

No one but you is talking about an open door policy. I’ve no idea why. We just need proper policies that treat people humanely and with respect. It’s not straight forward distinguishing between refugees and economic migrants but it’s not beyond us. Have faith.

Sorry for some reason I thought you were in favour of allowing all migrants into this country, I guess I mis-read your earlier post. If you mean just improving the process of handling legal/illegal migrants and asylum seekers and treating them better then yes I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately it will probably take a different Government for that to happen, as this current Government has already shown how self serving and hearless they are.

 

[Baldseagull]

Agree with much of that and your response makes a pleasant change from all the hysterical fannies itching for a binfest last night (some still carrying on today I see).

We are Indeed fortunate compared to many and in some ways I admire their tenacity and determination to find a better life but believe we should be concerned about people crossing the Channel risking their and life boat crews lives. Many people have died in the past and sadly more will do so as long as people believe its a productive route to get here. Let's hope it doesn't take bodies washing up on the beach before we realise simply saying nothing to worry about/more the merrier isn't the best way forward.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

I hope so too, but even if or when we have a better way forward, wherever they come from, and for whatever reason they are in the water, if someones life is in peril, the RNLI should attempt to assist, so we don't have bodies washing up on the beach. The practices of the RNLI is not what needs to change.

I don't think this is the thread for it, but I would be interested to hear your ideas on what could be the best way forward.

 

[Baldseagull]

That's fine then for those that enter the UK with the intention of applying for asylum. I'm not suggesting they should be treated like criminals (unless they enter the UK without a valid visa and have no intention of applying for asyluim...in which case they are breaking the law), only that this country doesn't have the resources to allow everyone and anyone to come here. And it would be silly to allow anyone - hence why there's a process to go though to be allowed to stay here legally. If they get their asylum request granted then good luck to them and the Government and local authorities should do everything they can to help them settle and integrate into the community.

Most people in the UK that are not supposed to be in the UK, are reckoned to be people that arrived legally but have overstayed. We don't know because we don't record all entries and exits to and from the UK. It is also impossible to know how many people have arrived undetected in the back of lorries.

About 60% of asylum claims are made by people that entered the UK without proper documentation.
98% of people entering the UK by small boats across the channel claimed asylum.

 

[hoof hearted]

Most people in the UK that are not supposed to be in the UK, are reckoned to be people that arrived legally but have overstayed. We don't know because we don't record all entries and exits to and from the UK. It is also impossible to know how many people have arrived undetected in the back of lorries.

About 60% of asylum claims are made by people that entered the UK without proper documentation.
98% of people entering the UK by small boats across the channel claimed asylum.

Thanks for the stats. Do you know, out of the 98% arriving by boat, how many successfully claimed asylum?
This may be a stupid question, but if they are paying a lot of money to traffickers, why not instead pay for a flight and just claim asylum on arrival?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Thanks for the stats. Do you know, out of the 98% arriving by boat, how many successfully claimed asylum?
This may be a stupid question, but if they are paying a lot of money to traffickers, why not instead pay for a flight and just claim asylum on arrival?

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/i...0HWK3Ert4QHcZXj_jcGM8142GbXDfDgxoCSM0QAvD_BwE

A lot of answers within the link.

To get a flight, you need a valid air route from the country you’re fleeing from, a valid passport, not being forced into an arranged marriage, or national service, or arrest for being gay etc etc. They’re not going on holiday.

 

[hoof hearted]

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/i...0HWK3Ert4QHcZXj_jcGM8142GbXDfDgxoCSM0QAvD_BwE

A lot of answers within the link.

To get a flight, you need a valid air route from the country you’re fleeing from, a valid passport, not being forced into an arranged marriage, or national service, or arrest for being gay etc etc. They’re not going on holiday.

Thanks for the link. No need to be snarky though, I wasn't implying they were going on holiday.

People that are drowning trying to come here are travelling across from France mostly. So they could make a claim for asylum in France, or the several other countries they've crossed on the way, depending on how they've travelled to get to France (maybe they are under the control of traffickers, but if they paid up front the traffickers probably wouldn't care if they get in the boat or not as they've already make their money from them).
I think what's needed (from my few minutes looking into this...) is
1) a way for people to be able to claim asylum in the UK without having to risk their lives to do so. Maybe they should first have to make a claim in the safe country they are currently in, assuming they have already left the country they are fleeing from, and if that country has reached whatever quota it has, then their claim should be referred to another country to process (how it's deciced which country that is, I have no idea, maybe done by country with lowest number of current claims?), if the asyluim seeker has family in a particular country then that country should receive the claim first). Basically the whole system should be overhauled. I think the critera for meeting a successful claim should be universal in every country.
2) for those already in the UK awaiting their asylum claim, they should be given the opportunity to work by giving them a special work visa while their claim is being processed (having to live on £5 is ridiculous) and giving them an opportunity to work is best for themselves and the country.
3) create a European task force aimed at tracking down people traffickers, which information shared between local police forces, and making the punishment much higher for these caught being invovled in the industry.
I know there's a lot more to it than that and I'm over simplifying what is a very complex issue.

 

[Javeaseagull]

Why do we have such difficulty saying the word “refugee”? They are referred to as migrants and even more sniffily as “Economic migrants”. I object to this because I am an economic migrant and bear no resemblance to these poor people.
I came to Spain because it offered me affordable housing and free health care as well as the good weather. Unfortunately that door is now closed to others due to Brexit.
They are refugees, the poor sods., not migrants like me.

 

[Baldseagull]

Thanks for the stats. Do you know, out of the 98% arriving by boat, how many successfully claimed asylum?
This may be a stupid question, but if they are paying a lot of money to traffickers, why not instead pay for a flight and just claim asylum on arrival?

About 60% I think. Depends on where they come from, most Eritrean's are accepted, most Albanians are rejected for example. To get a flight you need documentation, i.e. Visa or passport from a country we have visa free travel with, same with the Ferries and the Eurostar.

 

[birthofanorange]

Why do we have such difficulty saying the word “refugee”? They are referred to as migrants and even more sniffily as “Economic migrants”. I object to this because I am an economic migrant and bear no resemblance to these poor people.
I came to Spain because it offered me affordable housing and free health care as well as the good weather. Unfortunately that door is now closed to others due to Brexit.
They are refugees, the poor sods., not migrants like me.

Javea...near Moraira? Beautiful place....hope Brexshit hasn't affected you much.

 

[Weststander]

Why do we have such difficulty saying the word “refugee”? They are referred to as migrants and even more sniffily as “Economic migrants”. I object to this because I am an economic migrant and bear no resemblance to these poor people.
I came to Spain because it offered me affordable housing and free health care as well as the good weather. Unfortunately that door is now closed to others due to Brexit.
They are refugees, the poor sods., not migrants like me.

Refugee
Refugees are persons who are outside their country of origin for reasons of feared persecution, conflict, generalized violence, or other circumstances that have seriously disturbed public order and, as a result, require international protection. The refugee definition can be found in the 1951 Convention and regional refugee instruments, as well as UNHCR’s Statute.

--United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

 

[Machiavelli]

Well, my RNLI T-shirt arrived yesterday. And tomorrow, we start a tour of Essex and Kent, and the residents will have to witness it.

 

[Baldseagull]

Thanks for the link. No need to be snarky though, I wasn't implying they were going on holiday.

People that are drowning trying to come here are travelling across from France mostly. So they could make a claim for asylum in France, or the several other countries they've crossed on the way, depending on how they've travelled to get to France (maybe they are under the control of traffickers, but if they paid up front the traffickers probably wouldn't care if they get in the boat or not as they've already make their money from them).
I think what's needed (from my few minutes looking into this...) is
1) a way for people to be able to claim asylum in the UK without having to risk their lives to do so. Maybe they should first have to make a claim in the safe country they are currently in, assuming they have already left the country they are fleeing from, and if that country has reached whatever quota it has, then their claim should be referred to another country to process (how it's deciced which country that is, I have no idea, maybe done by country with lowest number of current claims?), if the asyluim seeker has family in a particular country then that country should receive the claim first). Basically the whole system should be overhauled. I think the critera for meeting a successful claim should be universal in every country.
2) for those already in the UK awaiting their asylum claim, they should be given the opportunity to work by giving them a special work visa while their claim is being processed (having to live on £5 is ridiculous) and giving them an opportunity to work is best for themselves and the country.
3) create a European task force aimed at tracking down people traffickers, which information shared between local police forces, and making the punishment much higher for these caught being invovled in the industry.
I know there's a lot more to it than that and I'm over simplifying what is a very complex issue.

These solutions and similar along with others are being sought by campaign groups. Our Government though seems to prefer creation of a hostile environment as a deterrent to people wanting to come, wants to look tough on it.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Well, my RNLI T-shirt arrived yesterday. And tomorrow, we start a tour of Essex and Kent, and the residents will have to witness it.

If you come through my part of Essex I’ll give you a wave (no pun intended).