[Misc] Conspiracy theories

[darkwolf666]

M/S Estonia

Not sure how knowns MS Estonia is in the UK but quite a lot about it is interesting.

When MS Estonia sank to the bottom of the ocean in 1994, it was the deadliest shipwreck in European peace time history.

852 people - mainly Swedes and Estonians - lost their lives. The official version is that the front part of the boat fell off, for whatever reason. However, more than thousand family members of these dead people question this, and are battling of media, governments and HWT/GB type of authority lickers labelling these concerned families as crazy and deranged.

Truth-seekers from all over the world but mainly Estonia have tried to solve the mysteries surrounding Estonia since it happened. Using the Freedom of Information Act, some have even tried to see the NSA documents about it - getting the answer "These documents are classified, because their disclosure is likely to cause significant damage to national security".


Some of the question marks:
1. Plenty of people heard what they believe to be explosions or the ship hitting something

2. The Swedish government immediatly said they were going to bring the ship up, but changed their minds within days

3. A few years after the incident, it was revealed that Estonia was frequently used for military transport between Eastern Europe and Sweden

4. The undead Estonians. Several of the crew members, including captain Avo Piht, were initially reported to be alive. After a few days, their status were changed to "Dead at sea". Now this spurred a lot of controversy in Estonia that is lasting to this day. One of the reasons: Piht was filmed twice, first going to the hospital in an ambulance, and later exiting it at the hospital.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atjKbaohJds

A former colleague of Piht, a ship doctor called Aivar Kaur, shaered his experience in Estonian media some 20 years ago.

At the day of the "accident", he and some other crew members were taking over the ferry Diana II.

"When we reached Diana, we recieved confirmation that Estonia had gone to the bottom. But who and how many that were rescued - no one knew at the time".

"While at Diana it became apparent that it would take some time to take over the work sections, and we were advised to take a walk to get to know the ship from the inside. We walked and ended up in a big passenger cafe, where a TV set was playing in the corner.

Some members of the former Swedish crew watched the TV and we asked them what would be shown. They said there would be a special news show showing the first shots of those rescued in Estonia. Of course we stopped and watched. And the shots started coming. The time was between nine and half ten German time. Probably 9.05-9.10".

"The shots ran and a shot comes in, from which you can see the ambulance driving, opening its door and people wrapped up in blankets leave. People are moving towards the open door of a building. And then - I am not sure if he was the second or the third but not the first or the last - came a man who stood still for a moment. He looked at the camera. As I saw it, he paid attention to that there was a TV camera recording him."

"This man was captain Piht. The guy got a movement unique to him. Not many people move with their headd slightly tilted to the side. This man looked like him and acted like him."

"The moment he came, made his movements, looked at the camera. The moment all four of us in front of the TV said the same thing - its our captain!".

"Everyone else who got out was hoarse and their heads covered. Only Piht had only a blanket on his shoulders, not over the head. Later I thought that he wanted to show himself and wanted to be seen. His goal was to capture the camera - look, this is me, Captain Piht".

"The cadre ran on, the rescued people went through the open door and the door closed. Everyone of us knew Piht, some had also worked with him. I was his ship doctor on Saint Patrick".

"An hour later, these shots were shown again, and at the end of the show it was announced that there will be a big overview show in the evening."

"In the evening, the shots we saw twice in the morning also started running during the program. Everything was the same until the moment of Piht staring into the camera, but this time he was overshadowed by the backs of two men. The footage was edited, and I have never seen them again".

"I've had to tell the same thing to the Finnish police, the Estonian security police and twice to the representatives of the Estonian side of the international investigation."

"Later, another shot appeared with an ambulance leaving M/S Mariella. A single man looks out the window. I've been watching this shot. Magnified and viewed in slow motion, a man with Avo Pihts face can be seen through the dim glass. The official explanation from the Swedish police is 'you are wrong about this being Piht", but they wont reveal who it is."

A couple of weeks ago, Discovery showed a documentary where some Swedish journalists visited the wreckage (which is illegal to do but they did it anyway) and found a large hole in the side of the ship. A lot of people now demand further investigations to if Estonia was perhaps bombed or accidently hit a submarine. The Swedish politicans that were active in 1994 are all saying that they dont wish to comment on Estonia.

I have to admit I know nothing about the MS Estonia, so popped it into Google. The very first search brought this article up. I read the title and stopped reading as I understood perfectly where your viewpoint was coming from...

https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/ms-estonia-disaster-conspiracy-sweden-radical-right-news-14531/

 

[Swansman]

I have to admit I know nothing about the MS Estonia, so popped it into Google. The very first search brought this article up. I read the title and stopped reading as I understood perfectly where your viewpoint was coming from...

https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/ms-estonia-disaster-conspiracy-sweden-radical-right-news-14531/

Nearly all conspiracy theories gets labelled "far right" despite most of them having believers all over the political spectra."Guilt by association" is a very useful tool in a polarized world.

I suggest reading about Estonia rather than about people reading about Estonia.

You can read more about it on the Estonia survivors and relatives foundation website here (google translate is your friend):
http://www.seainfo.se/sea-info/

 

[darkwolf666]

Nearly all conspiracy theories gets labelled "far right" despite most of them having believers all over the political spectra."Guilt by association" is a very useful tool in a polarized world.

I suggest reading about Estonia rather than about people reading about Estonia.

You can read more about it on the Estonia survivors and relatives foundation website here (google translate is your friend):
http://www.seainfo.se/sea-info/

I have had a look at the website you linked to, and maybe it was lost in translation, but I couldn't see much regards conspiracy (yes I have seen some of the other conspiracies linked to this vessel), more a site for grieving families, like those from Hillsborough to get some dignified answers from those in authority and to be treated as human beings as opposed to political opponents.

As mentioned, I have seen some of the conspiracies regards the Soviets sinking the ship and various other tales!

I guess sometimes conspiracies are borne out of tragedy as nobody can believe these things can just "happen" so look for wider answers!

 

[Machiavelli]

Dunno I'm asking Dan.

My guess is absolutely nothing.....

Deductive logic fits the bill -- most prominently, mathematics which is based on axioms.
Science, which engages with and studies the real world, tends to provide answers or theories that are provisional (and, therefore in principal at least, refutable).

 

[Swansman]

I rarely if ever visit "conspiracy websites". They are most often either politically biased, or racially biased, and I'm having none of it. However, I found a pretty nice one the other day, a long but nice summary of what you could call the foundations of conspiracism:

https://ordoabchao.ca/

The site splits history into six different volumes, each divided into multiple chapters

Volume One
"It all begins in Babylon in the sixth century BC, with the development of the Kabbalah, which resulted in the Ancient Mysteries, Greek philosophy, Hermeticism and Gnosticism, forming the bedrock of the occult tradition, that penetrated the Western world during the Crusades, culminating in the Rosicrucians and the Renaissance."

Volume Two
"The Rosicrucians were responsible for the advent of Shabbetai Zevi, who took the Jewish world by storm when he declared himself “messiah” in 1666. Zevi’s followers went underground, and emerged in Scottish Rite Freemasonry and the Illuminati, when they exercised a profound influence on the Age of Enlightement."

Volume Three
"Synarchism, which advanced the rule of secret societies, pushed legends of a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to advance a fascist agenda, which first culminated in the Nazis, many of whom went underground and continued to influence the rise of the right in the United States."

Volume Four
"Le Cercle headed the use of right-wing terrorists aligned with the Fascist International, to undermine support for communism. The enduring hidden influence of occultism in the West emerged as the counter-culture of the Sixties, pitting the New Left against the New Right."

Volume Five
"The American far right was brought to power with Ronald Reagan, through an alignment with the Christian Right, feeding into the neoconservatives ambitions of a Clash of Civilizations, a Hegelian Dialectic being played by Alexander Dugin, advancing the return of Russia as the Third Rome."

Volume Six
"The American Far Right used conservative media like Fox News to exacerbate a cultural divide known as Culture Wars by emphasizing “political correctness,” opening the way for Russia’s use of active measures to install Donald Trump as president. "

To the few other tin foilers around here: recommended read to those of you who have not yet been engulfed by the braindead davidickean clones on Youtube.

To others: probably nothing to see here, but if you are interested in history I think you might find it interesting.

 

[AlastairWatts]

Wow sea stories on a conspiracy tread! Page 5 about the Titanic - but wasn't the Lusitania supposed to be loaded to the gunwhales with munition? Dunno where they found the room for the pasengers though , many of whom were women and children.

And the Estonia - the bow doors came apart in heavy seas and the ship sank quickly, almost without warning. Roll on off off ships tend to do that when there's a problem with the loading doors.... As I undertsood it, they've covered the wreck with gravel and concrete quite possibly to prevent theories like those expressed here.

 

[Swansman]

And the Estonia - the bow doors came apart in heavy seas and the ship sank quickly, almost without warning. Roll on off off ships tend to do that when there's a problem with the loading doors.... As I undertsood it, they've covered the wreck with gravel and concrete quite possibly to prevent theories like those expressed here.

That is the official explanation yes, questioned by many (and not just "usual" tin foilers), especially in Estonia.

It was indeed covered, but reversing on their initial decision to bring the ship up and then covering it, making independent investigations difficult, did not prevent theories like those expressed here.

Recommended read: http://www.militaar.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=4367

Estonian (google translate does the job) forum for military nerds etc. where they are having a great and balanced discussion on the subject - both when it comes to the technical aspects of the ship and on the official as well as inofficial/fringe theories surrounding it.

 

[Goldstone1976]

That is the official explanation yes, questioned by many (and not just "usual" tin foilers), especially in Estonia.

It was indeed covered, but reversing on their initial decision to bring the ship up and then covering it, making independent investigations difficult, did not prevent theories like those expressed here.

Recommended read: http://www.militaar.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=4367

Estonian (google translate does the job) forum for military nerds etc. where they are having a great and balanced discussion on the subject - both when it comes to the technical aspects of the ship and on the official as well as inofficial/fringe theories surrounding it.

I'm curious about your thoughts on the connection between cannabis use and paranoia. A quick search on Google Scholar reveals 15k+ peer-reviewed papers on the topic. Do you think there's a direct causal relationship?

 

[Swansman]

I'm curious about your thoughts on the connection between cannabis use and paranoia. A quick search on Google Scholar reveals 15k+ peer-reviewed papers on the topic. Do you think there's a direct causal relationship?

Yes, cannabis is one of many things causing the thought process commonly known as paranoia.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Yes, cannabis is one of many things causing the thought process commonly known as paranoia.

Thanks. My partner has co-authored a few of the papers I referred to, and would agree.

 

[darkwolf666]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-55350794

Some useful advice from the BBC for dealing with conversations about conspiracy theories!

 

[Swansman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-55350794

Some useful advice from the BBC for dealing with conversations about conspiracy theories!

Interesting. Let me know if it works. Most of the "here's how to convert people into believing in those who rule society" advice generally doesnt work that well from my experience.

 

[RossyG]

You read it here first, folks...

 

[Swansman]

View attachment 134252

You read it here first, folks...

While I am a conspiracy theorist, I'm gonna go ahead and put this one in the "not very likely" category.

 

[RossyG]

While I am a conspiracy theorist, I'm gonna go ahead and put this one in the "not very likely" category.

I think she might be muddling up reality with an episode of Torchwood.

 

[beorhthelm]

View attachment 134252

You read it here first, folks...

i assume she's being ironic. right?

 

[Hugo Rune]

While I am a conspiracy theorist, I'm gonna go ahead and put this one in the "not very likely" category.

There is a thread on the 'Can't get you out of my head' documentary kicking about on NSC somewhere but I really recommend the 1st episode that examines how conspiracy theories are a tool for wielding power and control over people (a central pillar of Trumpism no less), the examination of the Illuminati theories and the need for a dramatic explanation of the JKF assassination are fascinating. Warning though, it might well put you off conspiracy theories for good!

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...get-you-out-of-my-head-review-adam-curtis-bbc

 

[RossyG]

i assume she's being ironic. right?

If she is then I’ve been whooshed but it was deleted by Twitter for breaching their Covid information rules, hence the screenshot.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

While I am a conspiracy theorist, I'm gonna go ahead and put this one in the "not very likely" category.

I knew you were going to say that.

I'm not allowed to tell you how though.

 

[Swansman]

There is a thread on the 'Can't get you out of my head' documentary kicking about on NSC somewhere but I really recommend the 1st episode that examines how conspiracy theories are a tool for wielding power and control over people (a central pillar of Trumpism no less), the examination of the Illuminati theories and the need for a dramatic explanation of the JKF assassination are fascinating. Warning though, it might well put you off conspiracy theories for good!

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...get-you-out-of-my-head-review-adam-curtis-bbc

It wont. Its just another documentary saying that conspiracy theorists are either racists, crazy, fooled by someone using us to "wield power and control over people" (funny as this is seen as impossible when conspiracy theorists say it, but entirely possible when alleged non-conspiracy theorists use it as an argument against us) and us "needing" explanations for things like WTC, the JFK murder or whatever, completely ignoring the possibility of the normies possible need for a government sanctioned "it wasnt us, it was those damn arabs/lunatics/whatever" theory.

I'm not going to watch it and it wouldnt change my mind, just like the other dozens of establishment clapped "anti-establishment is bad" documentaries. But thanks anyway. I hope the choir is enjoying the preaching.