Civil War Brewing in the Ukraine?

[Uncle Buck]

Events didn't go very well for the British Army in Afghanistan back in 1842 and even worse still twelve years later in The Crimea.

The Crimea War that we ultimately achieved our aims in and got the Tsar back under control. The casualties in the Charge of the Light Brigade were nowhere near as high as the poem and press reports. Horses were lost and men missed roll call that night as they were still retrieving their saddles from the dead horses on the battle field.

We lost a number in the siege of Sevastopol, but then if the French had just told us that the Russians all had lunch at the same time, we would not have attacked when we did and essentially walked in as the French did.

 

[somerset]

Wondered where I was? Ridciulous comment if you only check back one or two pages.

Im sorry, but we WENT TO WAR and occupied Afghanistan way before any attack on Britain, and the 7/7 attack was specificilly about the war in Irag.

Let me put it another way, apart from being Americas lapdog, and helping them fight their wars, mostly, brought about due to their own foreign polocies, why were we occupying Afghanistan.

Naaahhh,... done this to death in other threads,.. this is about Ukraine,... keep to the program DIP, your mate in Brno should be able to bolster your anti western rhetoric with some of his own,.....

Democracy is the point being debated here when you boil it down,.... you either want it or you dont....... with it comes responsibility for running major decisions through your democratic structure, when you move the economic and probably social trajectory of a nation away from the expected path, you need to consult the democratic body,.... thats the point being debated.

Try not to dilute the arguments with distractions about what goes on in other countries, it is your favourite tactic,..... stick to Ukraine and the rights and wrongs as you see them in that particular 'conflict'.

 

[daveinprague]

Events didn't go very well for the British Army in Afghanistan back in 1842 and even worse still twelve years later in The Crimea.

After years of being proud of the thin red line at Balaclava, and the charge of the Light Brigade, ive recently seen my great, great grandfathers military papers...
Seems he left the Russian army just after the Crimean war haha He came from Odessa, which was Russian, and not the Ukraine at the time.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Though Stalin did deport the Crimean Tatars, the original indigenous population of the peninsula, and shunted them off to Siberia to be replaced by incoming Russians.

Fairly irrelevant, but I was in the Crimea last summer. In Yalta we found a Lutheran church. The priest was the son the pastor of this church when Stalin deported his family to Siberia, on the basis they were German. The now priest was born in Siberia, but when the Soviet Union collapsed he head back to Yalta and put his claim on the church (which had become an indoor basketball court), the Ukrainian government returned the site to him.

 

[daveinprague]

Naaahhh,... done this to death in other threads,.. this is about Ukraine,... keep to the program DIP, your mate in Brno should be able to bolster your anti western rhetoric with some of his own,.....

Democracy is the point being debated here when you boil it down,.... you either want it or you dont....... with it comes responsibility for running major decisions through your democratic structure, when you move the economic and probably social trajectory of a nation away from the expected path, you need to consult the democratic body,.... thats the point being debated.

Try not to dilute the arguments with distractions about what goes on in other countries, it is your favourite tactic,..... stick to Ukraine and the rights and wrongs as you see them in that particular 'conflict'.

A democratically elected government in the Ukraine, has just been removed using violence.
Explain democracy for me again?


Anti west rhetoric? lol... a little theatrical.
as for 'keepiing with the program'....I was RESPONDING to??

'Ok, so Ukraine is hosting training camps for international terrorism is it?, Ukraine shuns democracy and flogs and dismembers members of its population in the name of religion, Ukraine must also then, block any education for females and ban any form of music or film?!!??...... No??...... thought not.'

keep with the program mate.

 

[Czechmate]

I am not sure that is the case, yes they are Russian in origin in the east, but they see more of a future by being western leaning. It is a fairly right wing country (often the case with one that has been the junior partner in an empire), so nationalism is high.

That's why every one needs to be careful , the Russians and EU/NATO etc , I hope nothing too drastic will happen in the meantime until the proposed elections in May but then again I think you will have a split in the country as both sides are pretty stubborn . It just gets me sometimes the amount of propaganda that comes form Western media and our country arse licking the US every time something erupts in the world . It would impress me more if Hague would just go and visit East Ukraine and get a different point of view , I see he was laying a reef for the dead in Kiev , that is honourable but I bet he didn't lay one for the police that were killed who are Ukrainian and just following orders .

On the news it seems a lot of people are for Russian influence in the East cities like Dnepropetrovsk , Donetsk , Kharkiv , Crimea etc.

 

[Czechmate]

I am having trouble posting sometimes at the moment , I hope I am not being spied on by the NSA

 

[Czechmate]

I am having trouble posting sometimes , I hope I am not being spied on by the NSA ??

 

[somerset]

A democratically elected government in the Ukraine, has just been removed using violence.
Explain democracy for me again?


Anti west rhetoric? lol... a little theatrical.
as for 'keepiing with the program'....I was responding to??

'Ok, so Ukraine is hosting training camps for international terrorism is it?, Ukraine shuns democracy and flogs and dismembers members of its population in the name of religion, Ukraine must also then, block any education for females and ban any form of music or film?!!??...... No??...... thought not.'

1) Removed using legitimate political protest which turned violent ONLY with the introduction of para-military units into the fray..... explained ok now?

2) Your Brno mate started with the Afghanistan references,... I was just shooting him down the silly billy.

3) Theatrical,...... really, I say it how I see it, and you rarely hide it under the proverbial bushel do you?

 

[daveinprague]

Its because of your 'anti west rhetoric' Czechmate.

 

[daveinprague]

1) Removed using legitimate political protest which turned violent ONLY with the introduction of para-military units into the fray..... explained ok now?

2) Your Brno mate started with the Afghanistan references,... I was just shooting him down the silly billy.

3) Theatrical,...... really, I say it how I see it, and you rarely hide it under the proverbial bushel do you?

Removed with legitimate political protest?? Democracy seems to have changed. When was that meeting?
There were clearly para militaries on both sides...its about Ukraine, and not Kiev...large swathes of the Ukraine want nothing to do with the west.

as from anti west rhetoric...im very proud to be British, and quite proud of a lot of its history,but wise enough to know a lot of our history meant a lot of shit for many people, in many countries around the world.

 

[Czechmate]

1) Removed using legitimate political protest which turned violent ONLY with the introduction of para-military units into the fray..... explained ok now?

2) Your Brno mate started with the Afghanistan references,... I was just shooting him down the silly billy.

3) Theatrical,...... really, I say it how I see it, and you rarely hide it under the proverbial bushel do you?

I have never mentioned Afghanistan at all Somerset ? Just trying to give a more independent view and that of my friends in Ukraine who I met at the Euro's and are very nice people !

 

[somerset]

...large swathes of the Ukraine want nothing to do with the west.

.....but large swathes do,...... 67% of the population is NOT of Russian origin..... so what you are saying is that the minority voice is the one that counts here?..... as demonstrated by the the President nodding towards Russia without running the decision past the elected body first.

 

[Czechmate]

Its because of your 'anti west rhetoric' Czechmate.

Think your right Dave !

 

[somerset]

I have never mentioned Afghanistan at all Somerset ? Just trying to give a more independent view and that of my friends in Ukraine who I met at the Euro's and are very nice people !

Sorry sir, it was DIP,.......

 

[Czechmate]

.....but large swathes do,...... 67% of the population is NOT of Russian origin..... so what you are saying is that the minority voice is the one that counts here?..... as demonstrated by the the President nodding towards Russia without running the decision past the elected body first.

Don't need to be of Russian origin to vote against being more European .

 

[daveinprague]

.....but large swathes do,...... 67% of the population is NOT of Russian origin..... so what you are saying is that the minority voice is the one that counts here?..... as demonstrated by the the President nodding towards Russia without running the decision past the elected body first.

He was elected with votes from many Ukrainians as well.....Neither you or I can speak about their reasons, or where they would
feel more comfortable. Many Ukrainians, mostly the older, are more comfortable with the Russian system, as thats what they have
known most of their lives.
Democracy, as I understand it, is via the ballot box...not with a violent uprising, where there appears to be evidence
of western funding...and far right nationalists gaining power in the new governement, which hopefully will be replaced by
a more legitimate body.

 

[somerset]

Don't need to be of Russian origin to vote against being more European .

Equally, you dont have to be Ukrainian to have reservations about closer ties with the 'Bear' to the north and east of you.

 

[daveinprague]

Sorry sir, it was DIP,.......

Nope..i responded to your post, as you were clearly referring to Afghanistan.
Anyway..back to the Ukraine...

 

[somerset]

He was elected with votes from many Ukrainians as well.....Neither you or I can speak about their reasons, or where they would
feel more comfortable. Many Ukrainians, mostly the older, are more comfortable with the Russian system, as thats what they have
known most of their lives.
Democracy, as I understand it, is via the ballot box...not with a violent uprising, where there appears to be evidence
of western funding...and far right nationalists gaining power in the new governement, which hopefully will be replaced by
a more legitimate body.

Of course he was,..... but it certainly wasn't on the 'lets cosy with the Russians' ticket.... that only emerged latterly..... a bit like Clegg and the tuition fees issue.... lol.

Funding by who?.... spurious rumour that has no basis in reality yet. Do you remember the first few weeks of these demonstrations?.. they were calm and dignified, they were spreading to other cities, and it only escalated when the President started throwing out threatening rhetoric, saying there was no turning back on the decision, and throwing more police to clear the squares and streets..... then it turned ugly.

In a new election, if a nationalist ( or even communist) governemtn is returned, then so be it, thats democracy.