[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[BBassic]

Why not?

Because he believes in zombies.

Keep up.

 

[Coldeanseagull]

So basically if you don't believe in God/Jesus then you're not going to heaven?

Where do we go then?

f*** going going to heaven, there's an whole universe to explore in the next life and I don't have to believe some one could turn water into wine to get there.

He should turn water to petrol, he'd get more followers....although the alcohol bit works as well I s'pose

 

[The Clamp]

I attend church regularly and find it very fulfilling. I like to help with church community projects and generally lend a hand to anyone in the congregation and they do the same in return.

I have only been doing this for the last two years and can honestly say, I wish I’d started earlier.

I don’t believe in a traditional “god” but It’s a very positive thing in my life and I find it great to be of service to others.

 

[Doonhamer7]

The problem isn’t the faith but that organised religion is just another form to control the masses.

 

[1066familyman]

Most people in the world are religious, so its difficult to blame selfishness and narcissism on atheists.

Agreed. A lot of people in secular societies appear to forget that the vast majority people in the world are still 'religious'.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

It validates it to the extent that Jesus was a real person who had followers and was crucified. It's also significant that even sceptical scholars such as Ehrman concede that those followers genuinely believed that they had seen Jesus alive after the crucifixion. For about 6 weeks. Ehrman admits that they all believed that they spent 6 weeks with Jesus post crucifixion, listening to him teaching them about the kingdom of God and whatnot. So how does one explain that? Group hallucination? I don't think that group hallucination is a thing. And then Paul later on separately had an encounter with Jesus while he was on his way to Damascus to have Christians arrested and imprisoned. It changed his life, and according to Bart Ehrman the history of the world.

I know. I did say that he was a sceptic.

Many Messiah figures had real followings and were crucified. That doesn’t make them God. Lots of people are convinced (without evidence) that they have “seen” a dead loved one. Doesn’t make it true.

The gospels were written AFTER Paul had his vision and wrote his letters (well, the ones that aren’t forgeries). The gospels were influenced by Paul, not the other way round.

Jesus only talked about being nice to people (e.g. the parable of the sheep and the goats), Paul changed that, requiring belief in the resurrection for salvation.

 

[Happy Exile]

The God concept has been in every single human culture since time began. Clear proof that human beings are not just physical beings. We are all made up of mind, body and soul. We are therefore clearly spiritual beings.

What baffles me is why Western secular societies are increasingly rejecting our spiritual self in the blind obedience to Science.

I don't think we're clearly spiritual at all. You could also argue (as many do) that human consciousness and exceptionalism doesn't allow for us to not feel we have some control over the world (hence prayer, sacrifices etc) or at minimum we have an innate need to explain the unexplainable ("will of the gods").

The spiritual self is just our brains making us feel something. There's some fun studies been done on brain activity in treating complex PTSD that show what happens and is felt by monks meditating their way to nirvana, people entering spiritual rapture through prayer, people hitting the perfect wave surfing with their friends in a warm ocean and people taking MDMA in the right environment is all the same.

I don't reject the spiritual self at all, I just don't think it's spiritual. It's just a neurological response we crave. There's a reason so many of those human cultures used all sorts of hallucinogenics to communicate with that spiritual self and plenty of Christian visions can be attributed to mouldy food. In fact, since the very first humans getting off our heads has been a part of culture (this is entirely true) - it's all just chasing an alternative reality.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

I can imagine the now-ejected Swedish pizza-box-botherer would be having a field day with this thread.

I'm sure he wouldn't be short of an opinion or 15

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

The people who always amuse me are the people who convert from one religion to another for various reasons. Surely they are effectively saying that they backed the wrong horse the first time round and now want to try another one, it seems to treat religion like washing detergents - switch the brand if it doesn't do what it says on the packet. The others are NFL players or footballers who always make the sign of the cross at key moments - surely if there was a god he would have more important things to worry about than the outcome of a game of football. As Johan Cruyff said "I'm not religious. In Spain all 22 players make the sign of the cross before they enter the pitch. If it works all matches must therefore end in a draw". I believe Trump is most probably an atheist but he knows how to tap into a large part of the voter base in the US by playing the religion card and his followers are quite happy to ignore the fact he is a nasty piece of work. I believe the indoctrination of children under the age of 18 should not be allowed, once they are 18 by all means follow any religion they like - but then it's their choice and it hasn't been forced on them. Of course it will never happen because the major religions know the number of followers would drop off drastically. George Carlin's take on religion sums up mine. I particularly like his line "God is all powerful and all seeing -but he always needs money!"

 

[1066familyman]

I don't think we're clearly spiritual at all. You could also argue (as many do) that human consciousness and exceptionalism doesn't allow for us to not feel we have some control over the world (hence prayer, sacrifices etc) or at minimum we have an innate need to explain the unexplainable ("will of the gods").

The spiritual self is just our brains making us feel something. There's some fun studies been done on brain activity in treating complex PTSD that show what happens and is felt by monks meditating their way to nirvana, people entering spiritual rapture through prayer, people hitting the perfect wave surfing with their friends in a warm ocean and people taking MDMA in the right environment is all the same.

I don't reject the spiritual self at all, I just don't think it's spiritual. It's just a neurological response we crave. There's a reason so many of those human cultures used all sorts of hallucinogenics to communicate with that spiritual self and plenty of Christian visions can be attributed to mouldy food. In fact, since the very first humans getting off our heads has been a part of culture (this is entirely true) - it's all just chasing an alternative reality.

Good post. I'll think on that and maybe respond. I agree with a lot of what you say there.

 

[portlock seagull]

Literally 1000s of kids that grew up in orphanages operated by the Catholic Church during the 50s 60s and 70s will probably challenge your “boring insulting ignorant sweeping statement” line.

That’s like me accusing you of being an abuser because you’re human? Or a hooligan because you like football? We all belong to groups, and there’s rot in everyone of them. The what aboutery line of argument is endless, and is best filed under boring insulting ignorant and/or sweeping…a bit like your reply!

 

[portlock seagull]

Very much a generalisation I know but bible thumpers in my experience tend to be holier than thou and unwilling to even consider an opinion that is not the same as theirs as being valid

A bit like every other human group out there?!

 

[drew]

Interesting thread which I think was initiated following my little spat with K on the televised football thread. Apologies if not.

My take is that religion is about control. Putting the fear of god into to people to make them subservient. I fully appreciate there are religions or sections of religion that do good but that is not the sole preserve of religion. I also accept many people get welcome solace from support from their fellow believers but that doesn't make it true. Also, you don't have to believe in a deity to treat others with kindness. My view is that there is no life after death. You're born, you develop, you procreate to further the species, you nurture the young then you die. Rinse and repeat. That's it, that's the purpose of life. People who are scared that death is the end need something to cling to and religion provides that. There is no power of prayer, it's just meditating. Quiet time to sort out the things going on in your head. Take away the idea of prayer or heaven and the beliefs are then vacuous.

As for the bible, it's just a bunch of stories. Yes, there may well have been a guy and his name may have been Jesus but he wasn't born from an immaculate conception. He was probably a decent bloke who spoke well and treated others well. He didn't die for anybody's sins and he didn't die and get resurrected. After he'd gone the myths started to grow.

If you really need to think of heaven then think of it just as the memories that you leave behind. Treat people well and they'll have good memories. Treat them like shit and they and probably others will think the worst of you.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

That’s like me accusing you of being an abuser because you’re human? Or a hooligan because you like football? We all belong to groups, and there’s rot in everyone of them. The what aboutery line of argument is endless, and is best filed under boring insulting ignorant and/or sweeping…a bit like your reply!

Problem is the fact it went to the very top at the Vatican and they covered it up.

 

[Triggaaar]

It validates it to the extent that Jesus was a real person who had followers and was crucified. It's also significant that even sceptical scholars such as Ehrman concede that those followers genuinely believed that they had seen Jesus alive after the crucifixion. For about 6 weeks. Ehrman admits that they all believed that they spent 6 weeks with Jesus post crucifixion, listening to him teaching them about the kingdom of God and whatnot.

He admits? Exactly where is the proof that they believed that, 2,000 years after the event? If they believed in him and wanted others to believe, it wouldn't be a surprise if they lied about what happened after his death.

Do you have children kuzushi?

 

[kuzushi]

there may well have been a guy and his name may have been Jesus but he wasn't born from an immaculate conception. He was probably a decent bloke who spoke well and treated others well.

When you say "may", I take it you don't mean it in the sense that you have any doubts about it, because if anyone wants to have a serious discussion about the topic of Jesus, recognising that he was a real historical person is the first thing to get absolutely straight. You'll be very hard pressed to find scholars or historians who have the remotest doubt that Jesus was a real person who lived, preached, had disciples and was crucified by the Romans. I only say this because for some reason it's astonishing how often people come out with things such as "I'm not sure whether Jesus was a real person or not." And these are people who want to have a discussion about whether it's reasonable or not to believe in Jesus. How can you be qualified to have a sensible opinion on that if you don't even know the most basic facts about him, in particular the fact that there is no shadow of a doubt that he lived.
(Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of being one of those people.)

 

[kuzushi]

He admits? Exactly where is the proof that they believed that, 2,000 years after the event? If they believed in him and wanted others to believe, it wouldn't be a surprise if they lied about what happened after his death.

You could read some of Ehrman's work. He's effectively an atheist, but he is considered an expert on the topic of the New Testament.

Edit: Based on my knowledge of the scriptures and early church history, it seems pretty clear to me that they did.

Do you have children kuzushi?

No offence, but is it any of your business whether I have children or not?
I don't see how that's relevant.

 

[kuzushi]

Why not?

I've read online that it's not possible, and it seems reasonable to me that that must be so. A hallucination is a completely subjective thing, the same as dreams. I don't really see how you could have shared hallucinations any more than you could have shared dreams. It's not an illusion, or a deception, which could be shared. One person, for example, could believe they're seeing their late grandmother when in fact she isn't there, but it would be weird if their neighbour popped in for a cuppa and declared, "My goodness! It's your gran standing there! I thought she was dead!"
How could a group of people all see the same hallucination?

 

[Carbonara]

Religion doesn't make you good. Without it you would have been good anyway.I don't believe in God one bit but I consider myself a good person.
Personally I stay clear of religious people.They scare me.

 

[Carbonara]

Can we talk about why do people believe in God? that is a far more interesting subject.