BBassic
I changed this.
- Jul 28, 2011
- 12,984
He should turn water to petrol, he'd get more followers....although the alcohol bit works as well I s'poseSo basically if you don't believe in God/Jesus then you're not going to heaven?
Where do we go then?
f*** going going to heaven, there's an whole universe to explore in the next life and I don't have to believe some one could turn water into wine to get there.
Agreed. A lot of people in secular societies appear to forget that the vast majority people in the world are still 'religious'.Most people in the world are religious, so its difficult to blame selfishness and narcissism on atheists.
Many Messiah figures had real followings and were crucified. That doesn’t make them God. Lots of people are convinced (without evidence) that they have “seen” a dead loved one. Doesn’t make it true.It validates it to the extent that Jesus was a real person who had followers and was crucified. It's also significant that even sceptical scholars such as Ehrman concede that those followers genuinely believed that they had seen Jesus alive after the crucifixion. For about 6 weeks. Ehrman admits that they all believed that they spent 6 weeks with Jesus post crucifixion, listening to him teaching them about the kingdom of God and whatnot. So how does one explain that? Group hallucination? I don't think that group hallucination is a thing. And then Paul later on separately had an encounter with Jesus while he was on his way to Damascus to have Christians arrested and imprisoned. It changed his life, and according to Bart Ehrman the history of the world.
I know. I did say that he was a sceptic.
I don't think we're clearly spiritual at all. You could also argue (as many do) that human consciousness and exceptionalism doesn't allow for us to not feel we have some control over the world (hence prayer, sacrifices etc) or at minimum we have an innate need to explain the unexplainable ("will of the gods").The God concept has been in every single human culture since time began. Clear proof that human beings are not just physical beings. We are all made up of mind, body and soul. We are therefore clearly spiritual beings.
What baffles me is why Western secular societies are increasingly rejecting our spiritual self in the blind obedience to Science.
Good post. I'll think on that and maybe respond. I agree with a lot of what you say there.I don't think we're clearly spiritual at all. You could also argue (as many do) that human consciousness and exceptionalism doesn't allow for us to not feel we have some control over the world (hence prayer, sacrifices etc) or at minimum we have an innate need to explain the unexplainable ("will of the gods").
The spiritual self is just our brains making us feel something. There's some fun studies been done on brain activity in treating complex PTSD that show what happens and is felt by monks meditating their way to nirvana, people entering spiritual rapture through prayer, people hitting the perfect wave surfing with their friends in a warm ocean and people taking MDMA in the right environment is all the same.
I don't reject the spiritual self at all, I just don't think it's spiritual. It's just a neurological response we crave. There's a reason so many of those human cultures used all sorts of hallucinogenics to communicate with that spiritual self and plenty of Christian visions can be attributed to mouldy food. In fact, since the very first humans getting off our heads has been a part of culture (this is entirely true) - it's all just chasing an alternative reality.
That’s like me accusing you of being an abuser because you’re human? Or a hooligan because you like football? We all belong to groups, and there’s rot in everyone of them. The what aboutery line of argument is endless, and is best filed under boring insulting ignorant and/or sweeping…a bit like your reply!Literally 1000s of kids that grew up in orphanages operated by the Catholic Church during the 50s 60s and 70s will probably challenge your “boring insulting ignorant sweeping statement” line.
A bit like every other human group out there?!Very much a generalisation I know but bible thumpers in my experience tend to be holier than thou and unwilling to even consider an opinion that is not the same as theirs as being valid
Problem is the fact it went to the very top at the Vatican and they covered it up.That’s like me accusing you of being an abuser because you’re human? Or a hooligan because you like football? We all belong to groups, and there’s rot in everyone of them. The what aboutery line of argument is endless, and is best filed under boring insulting ignorant and/or sweeping…a bit like your reply!
It validates it to the extent that Jesus was a real person who had followers and was crucified. It's also significant that even sceptical scholars such as Ehrman concede that those followers genuinely believed that they had seen Jesus alive after the crucifixion. For about 6 weeks. Ehrman admits that they all believed that they spent 6 weeks with Jesus post crucifixion, listening to him teaching them about the kingdom of God and whatnot.
When you say "may", I take it you don't mean it in the sense that you have any doubts about it, because if anyone wants to have a serious discussion about the topic of Jesus, recognising that he was a real historical person is the first thing to get absolutely straight. You'll be very hard pressed to find scholars or historians who have the remotest doubt that Jesus was a real person who lived, preached, had disciples and was crucified by the Romans. I only say this because for some reason it's astonishing how often people come out with things such as "I'm not sure whether Jesus was a real person or not." And these are people who want to have a discussion about whether it's reasonable or not to believe in Jesus. How can you be qualified to have a sensible opinion on that if you don't even know the most basic facts about him, in particular the fact that there is no shadow of a doubt that he lived.there may well have been a guy and his name may have been Jesus but he wasn't born from an immaculate conception. He was probably a decent bloke who spoke well and treated others well.
You could read some of Ehrman's work. He's effectively an atheist, but he is considered an expert on the topic of the New Testament.He admits? Exactly where is the proof that they believed that, 2,000 years after the event? If they believed in him and wanted others to believe, it wouldn't be a surprise if they lied about what happened after his death.
Do you have children kuzushi?
Why not?