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[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people



DavidinSouthampton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 3, 2012
17,336
I agree that people should think for themselves. But once they do, the bible can unravel fast. Here are a couple of examples.

I think we all agree that the creation stories in Genesis are fiction. So what about Jesus’s genealogy in Luke, which shows that Jesus is related to Adam, who we’ve just agreed is fictional?

Most people agree that the Exodus never happened (I’m happy to discuss if you disagree). If it didn’t happen, Moses is another fictional character. But in the New Testament Moses makes a comeback at Jesus’s transfiguration. Not bad for a dead fictional character.

But let’s assume for a moment that Moses was a real person. After his death he would be dead until Jesus’s 2nd coming, which hasn’t happened yet, so how did Moses appear during the transfiguration? Whether Moses is real or fictional, he should not have appeared in the New Testament.

With your background, I’d be interested in your views on such biblical inconsistencies.
Does this mean that the six inch high figure of Moses that my daughters gave me years ago as a joke for my birthday is a lie? I’m heartbroken. They also once gave me a fridge magnet of a man in contemporary clothing standing alongside a traditional depiction of Jesus, and he is saying “Jesus, please protect me from your followers”. Quite appropriate perhaps!

And in all honesty I have learnt a lot from this thread in many ways, and have enjoyed some parts of it. It’s made me think and reminded me of how sceptical I can be.…….. talking of biblical inconsistencies…..

One of Jesus’s great talents in my view was talking to people in terms they would understand - parables based on things that people had experience of like sheep and goats, sowing seed on stony ground, Jews and Samaritans. Most people today would not appreciate the real centuries old hatred between Jews and Samaritans, which makes the story of the Good Samaritan all the more powerful.

But Jesus being a direct descendant of Adam would have been accepted thinking at the time. Luke and the other Gospel writers would I guess have accepted it because they knew no different. Ordinary people of 400 or 500 years ago would believe things that we would see as patent nonsense, let alone people of 2000 years ago. So they - the writers as well as the people - would not have considered Adam fictional. i really don’t know when people would have stopped believing that.

In terms of the Exodus and Moses, I’ve seen both described as mythical and wouldn’t argue with that, but would also accept there might be grains of truth in both myths - the story of the Exodus perhaps does contain true episodes, and maybe there was someone called Moses but he did not come down from the mountain with tablets of stone. But it makes me think of the African tradition of the Griot - look up African musicians such as Toumani Diabate or Ali Farka Toure, who are part of a tradition of African story-telling going back hundreds of years, so is this not part of a similar tradition where stories were handed down from generation and elaborated to make them more interesting and memorable so that the real story got lost in the mists of time. But in terms of the people of Jesus’s time, Moses would probably been real and not fictional.

And being sceptical, the Transfuguration is something I would take with a pinch of salt, but The Jewish people of the time would have expected to see him there.

I hope this helps. Not sure it will!
 




Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley


kuzushi

Well-known member
Oct 3, 2015
710
maybe there was someone called Moses but he did not come down from the mountain with tablets of stone.
Out of curiosity, can you explain how you know he didn't?
It's just that for someone who has said you don't like certainty, you've said that with a lot of confidence.
I would honestly be interested if you could explain this.
 


dangull

Well-known member
Feb 24, 2013
5,158
There is a good film on now on Film4 called Risen . A biblical drama even showing the shroud, much discussed here. Kuzushi maybe interested anyway.
 


kuzushi

Well-known member
Oct 3, 2015
710
There is a good film on now on Film4 called Risen . A biblical drama even showing the shroud, much discussed here. Kuzushi maybe interested anyway.


Risen is a 2016 American/Spanish biblical drama film directed by Kevin Reynolds and written by Reynolds and Paul Aiello. The film stars Joseph Fiennes, Tom Felton, Peter Firth, and Cliff Curtis, and details a Roman soldier's search for Yeshua's body following his resurrection. Columbia Pictures released the film to theaters in the United States on February 19, 2016. It received mixed reviews and grossed $46 million worldwide.


 




BBassic

I changed this.
Jul 28, 2011
13,036
I've loved this thread. It's been really interesting reading the back and forth.

I've thought on it a lot and I tend to think these days of religion as a bit of a security blanket.

I have my own security blanket - I believe in ghosts. Or rather I believe in the idea that we continue when we die. However I know that belief comes from a fear of dying.

I know logically that when we die we go in the ground and that's it. But that scares the everloving shit out of me; the idea that the lights go out and I cease to exist is horrific. So I like to believe in ghosts :shrug:

And that's basically religion to me I think. A belief system to give people something to hold on to. And that's fine. The world can be a brutal place.
 


Jackthelad

Well-known member
Mar 31, 2010
1,068
Risen is a 2016 American/Spanish biblical drama film directed by Kevin Reynolds and written by Reynolds and Paul Aiello. The film stars Joseph Fiennes, Tom Felton, Peter Firth, and Cliff Curtis, and details a Roman soldier's search for Yeshua's body following his resurrection. Columbia Pictures released the film to theaters in the United States on February 19, 2016. It received mixed reviews and grossed $46 million worldwide.

Good film.
 


kuzushi

Well-known member
Oct 3, 2015
710
I know logically that when we die we go in the ground and that's it.
It's just your body that goes in the ground. There's more to you than just your body.
 






Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
I've loved this thread. It's been really interesting reading the back and forth.

I've thought on it a lot and I tend to think these days of religion as a bit of a security blanket.

I have my own security blanket - I believe in ghosts. Or rather I believe in the idea that we continue when we die. However I know that belief comes from a fear of dying.

I know logically that when we die we go in the ground and that's it. But that scares the everloving shit out of me; the idea that the lights go out and I cease to exist is horrific. So I like to believe in ghosts :shrug:

And that's basically religion to me I think. A belief system to give people something to hold on to. And that's fine. The world can be a brutal place.
I find the thought of it all being over far more of a comfort than having to do it all again, or being stuck in an eternal afterlife.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,036
Goldstone
To be frank, I find this sort of questioning as off putting as blind faith and a loud insistence of righteousness. It also puts people off being willing to engage or openly express themselves since they're worried anything they come out with will be answered by an extended interrogation of their beliefs and life philosophy.
Either there's a discussion, or there's not. If someone wants to say they believe, but don't want to say in what or why, that's fine. If someone wants to say exactly what they believe in, that's fine too.
 




DavidinSouthampton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 3, 2012
17,336
Out of curiosity, can you explain how you know he didn't?
It's just that for someone who has said you don't like certainty, you've said that with a lot of confidence.
I would honestly be interested if you could explain this.
I should have repeated the maybe, possibly: “maybe there was someone called Moses, but maybe he didn’t come down from the mountain with tablets of stone“. that is genuinely what I intended. I don’t do certainty.

I was leading a Lent study group a few years ago and someone said - and I can’t remember the context - “I, Joe Bloggs, know that I am saved!” I didn’t question it at the time - or later if it comes to that - but I could not comfortably say that. It’s not up to me.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,036
Goldstone
I didn't say it's been proven.
What I'm saying is that the director of the 1988 radiocarbon dating said that they tested a repaired patch of the cloth

Did the director not think it might be sensible to carbon date an original part of the cloth in the first place? It took years to get an agreement to test it, so what idiots would then just grab any old bit without checking it was the right bit to check?
 


kuzushi

Well-known member
Oct 3, 2015
710
Nope, there's not. And I know that.

But I do like the idea of coming back as Casper. Or perhaps Pipes the Poltergeist if I'm feeling feisty.

That's enough for me.

How do you know that?
 




kuzushi

Well-known member
Oct 3, 2015
710
Did the director not think it might be sensible to carbon date an original part of the cloth in the first place? It took years to get an agreement to test it, so what idiots would then just grab any old bit without checking it was the right bit to check?
Ray Rogers was not the one who chose which part of the cloth to test. He was charged with testing the piece of cloth he was given.
I agree with you that it was odd. Also odd that it took a freedom of information request, by a French journalist I think, to get the British Museum to release the raw data from the tests.
 




kuzushi

Well-known member
Oct 3, 2015
710
Ray Rogers was not the one who chose which part of the cloth to test. He was charged with testing the piece of cloth he was given.
I agree with you that it was odd. Also odd that it took a freedom of information request, by a French journalist I think, to get the British Museum to release the raw data from the tests.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,036
Goldstone
What I'm saying is that the director of the 1988 radiocarbon dating said
Hold on - Ray Rogers wasn't the director of the 1988 radiocarbon dating. The team was headed by Tom D'Muhala.
 




kuzushi

Well-known member
Oct 3, 2015
710




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