[News] China protests over Zero-Covid policy

[The Clamp]

I've also been to China many times and I don't see people oppressed or living in poverty, they have a decent standard of living like any other modern country. The negative news reports you hear are exagerated and blown out of proportion. They can just as easy criticise us for having more food banks than Mcdonalds and voting to pose economic sanctions on ourselves with a government who pretend it's good for us with politicians who's every second word is a lie

Well, quite. I know they are largely not oppressed or in poverty. The consequences for dissent are draconian but day to day life appears pleasant for most.

Having said that, the government reaction to these lockdown protests is raising some eyebrows.

As far as democracy goes, look at the results it’s garnered for us.. a corrupt, useless Tory government and Brexit.

Pass the noodles.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Nobody imagines that. You’re better than that kind of remark.

You are kidding me. Of course people believe this!

I didn't mean you, though, obviously.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I dont think they are no, most people do think its completely acceptable however - even defending it.
I'm not ashamed of what China does in China or elsewhere. I am ashamed of what Sweden with European brothers are doing abroad, because we often sit on our high horses pretending we aren't doing anything bad, and that we're supposedly electing our governments - making us responsible for what we do elsewhere.

Why would you be ashamed of the actions of a government that, according to your own stated views, you have no meaningful role in electing or control over?
And why does that mean that you (or anybody else) shouldn't make reasonable criticism of other governments?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Largely this thread has descended into people violently agreeing with one another

 

[The Clamp]

Largely this thread has descended into people violently agreeing with one another

Has been quite an entertaining old style NSC binfest. Shan’t be making a habit of it though. It’s amused me through my first hangover in 7 months but won’t be repeating it anytime soon.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Indeed. But imposing our value system on another culture is arrogant. I think that the heat in this thread is missplaced. I don't think there is much disagreement between posters, on the whole, except from those who imagine that China will never be free until it has western-style democracy.

I would argue (in general) that you either believe in your values and hold both yourselves and others to them, or you don't. If another culture doesn't match up to those values, you have to honestly question whether your own values are crock, or if the other culture is actually just a bunch of bellends.
The alternative is to believe that some people aren't deserving of the treatment we'd wish for ourselves.
In any case, it's not the Chinese culture that I'd question, it's the CCP policies. Referring back to the democracy/dictatorship point, any government in power for too long goes a bit mad, whether it's the Conservatives in this country (or Labour before them) or dictatorships elsewhere.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Largely this thread has descended into people violently agreeing with one another

It's all Chinese whispers.

 

[Swansman]

Why would you be ashamed of the actions of a government that, according to your own stated views, you have no meaningful role in electing or control over?
And why does that mean that you (or anybody else) shouldn't make reasonable criticism of other governments?

1. Well yes the whole thing about democracy being a real thing is of course deeply indoctrinated in me so I still spontaneusly feel embarrassed when the Swedish govt is doing shit, despite having no vote in who's actually in charge of the country. But govt or no govt, its not like I've been out on the streets protesting Wallenberg either - so I'm still part of the problem, vote or no vote.

2. Shouldn't and shouldn't... just feels a bit wank moaning about country X doing this and county Y doing that when I know my country is just as bad. I'm not saying you shouldnt/couldnt criticise others but the whole "but my country is at least a bit better" thing which is very common all around the world... not a fan of it. What right do I really have to say that Sweden is better/more moral than Russia (as an example) when I'm well aware what we've done in Sudan? I could say Russian govt/business is shit but the only humble thing to do is to add that Swedish business/govt is equally shit.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

The wealth of the Chinese multi billionaire elite is mind boggling. A colleague of my son has a Chinese wife who works in a London casino frequented by these super rich individuals. She’s had cash tips as much as £10k. By all accounts they are very pleasant, generous people just a strange fit for a repressive communist state.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Toying with a Chinese tonight (meal that is)…..I’m not going to macdonalds anymore now I know Clampie works there ……and as for a pizza

 

[Zeberdi]

…the party machine may decide Xi has f***ed up and force him out, as they have done with leaders (and aspirants) in the past. Shooting members of the public may serve a short term purpose, but it can't ever work long term, so it is either stop this lock down nonsense, or get rid of Xi. Interesting times...

(I disagree ) - I think shooting people at any point in any country for demonstrating can certainly serve a long term purpose of enforcing a belief that protest will ultimately effect nothing but a tightening up of security and an increased likelihood of being imprisoned or shot.

As regards your other point - I think perhaps you have more trust in the ability of the ’Party Faithful’ to overturn a dictatorial leadership than I do (we’ve been saying the same of Putin and his invasion of Ukraine but he’s still very much in power) - but even if that were to happen in China and XI or his replacement reversed the lock down policy - what are they going do? - allow millions of non-vaccinated people into high density city areas, free to travel all over China and the World?

There could be an enormous loss of life, an extraordinarily high level of work absenteeism due to sickness and complete collapse of healthcare availability - the implications of that are potentially profound impacts on the global economy and Chinese imports as the workforce producing and shipping goods to the West become significantly diminished - this isn’t cheap consumer goods but medical supplies, high end technology equipment and even defence supplies. Bearing in mind the upward spiral of deaths from the first strains in Europe before vaccines were available - China is now dealing with substantially more variants some of which have a much higher transmissibility than others.

XI has fcuked up big time in his handling of the Covid pandemic and is now caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea - but getting rid of him for someone who will end the lockdown zero-covid policy without widespread vaccination and with China having one of the fastest aging population on earth, most of whom live with younger family members, the outcome could be as equally devastating as keeping people in lockdown.

A way forward for China could maybe

1. end the ‘wet markets’ that only serve as a petri dish for zoonotic viruses such as Covid and
2. ask the West to help with a widespread emergency vaccination programme

Two things that will probably never happen but would make a sensible precondition of ending XIs lockdowns.

I personally don’t think the protests will make one iota of difference to XI’s Covid policy - and even with the relatively mild clampdown, confiscating phones, rough handling foreign journalists the protests already seem to have been largely curtailed.

We’ve seen very little large scale protest in China because they shoot people who protest and drive tanks at them…

Hmm - That does seem to be based on empirical evidence

 

[Swansman]

The wealth of the Chinese multi billionaire elite is mind boggling. A colleague of my son has a Chinese wife who works in a London casino frequented by these super rich individuals. She’s had cash tips as much as £10k. By all accounts they are very pleasant, generous people just a strange fit for a repressive communist state.

They're not communists though. Its just a capitalistic one-party state.

 

[BN41Albion]

I've also been to China many times and I don't see people oppressed or living in poverty, they have a decent standard of living like any other modern country. The negative news reports you hear are exagerated and blown out of proportion. They can just as easy criticise us for having more food banks than Mcdonalds and voting to pose economic sanctions on ourselves with a government who pretend it's good for us with politicians who's every second word is a lie

Having lived in China I disagree - many groups of peoples are oppressed (certainly not the han Chinese who live mainly in the most westernised cities) and live in fear of a government who doesn't hesitate in violently quashing any form or protest for human rights. Even han Chinese have only had the glass ceiling raised a certain amount in terms of freedoms (internet censorship for one). Not obvious to those visiting but it becomes more obvious the more time you spend there. Almost impossible to talk politics with natives for a start, basically through fear. Activists who have gone missing. High profile people who have disappeared from public spotlight suddenly after speaking out.

In terms of poverty China is doing a lot but there is still a great deal of poverty with a huge gap between rich and poor.

Back on topic, huge respect to those protesting as it's very risky indeed.

 

[The Clamp]

Double post

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

They're not communists though. Its just a capitalistic one-party state.

So CCP stands for Chinese Capitalist Party? Right?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

2. Shouldn't and shouldn't... just feels a bit wank moaning about country X doing this and county Y doing that when I know my country is just as bad. I'm not saying you shouldnt/couldnt criticise others but the whole "but my country is at least a bit better" thing which is very common all around the world... not a fan of it. What right do I really have to say that Sweden is better/more moral than Russia (as an example) when I'm well aware what we've done in Sudan? I could say Russian govt/business is shit but the only humble thing to do is to add that Swedish business/govt is equally shit.

I think it's important to accept that criticism must sometimes come from people who are themselves flawed.
As somebody who does calculation checks on bridge designs, that's a principle I'm pretty comfortable with .
Out of interest, does the expression "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" exist in Swedish?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

So CCP stands for Chinese Capitalist Party? Right?

Whatever they call themselves, they're not communists in any meaningful way.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Whatever they call themselves, they're not communists in any meaningful way.

But that is how Xi justifies his excesses

 

[Swansman]

So CCP stands for Chinese Capitalist Party? Right?

It really doesn't matter what they call themselves. Their politics aren't communist and haven't been for a long while. Similar to how Manchester United does not appear to be all that united, or how the UK Conservative Party isn't really conserving anything but rather try to do massive and frequently useless changes.

In what regard would you describe the Communist Party as communist? Do think the people have the power? Do you think the workers control the means of production? Do you think there's no social classes in China, no wealthy people owning property?

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

It really doesn't matter what they call themselves. Their politics aren't communist and haven't been for a long while. Similar to how Manchester United does not appear to be all that united, or how the UK Conservative Party isn't really conserving anything but rather try to do massive and frequently useless changes.

In what regard would you describe the Communist Party as communist? Do think the people have the power? Do you think the workers control the means of production? Do you think there's no social classes in China, no wealthy people owning property?

Zero freedom of speech for the proles, for a start.