[News] China protests over Zero-Covid policy

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

ah, see we've reach "no true communism" stage.

I reached it yesterday. But I did add that it isn't possible because too much of it is contrary to innate human imperatives (I paraphrase).

I also said yesterday that people had started violently agreeing with one another. Unfortunately the thread has now descended to "playing the man". Not only that but actually using the ball to play the man

 

[beorhthelm]

I reached it yesterday. But I did add that it isn't possible because too much of it is contrary to innate human imperatives (I paraphrase).

true, though i'd say under Mao they did do true communism, and showed it doesn't work. advocates dont accept that, want to keep the dream alive.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

true, though i'd say under Mao they did do true communism, and showed it doesn't work. advocates dont accept that, want to keep the dream alive.

Possibly. Not sure how writing his own little red book of communist thought, carrying out acts of unbelievably cruelty, using slavery, and the killing of 45 million of his own people fits into the doctrine of Marx, but what do I know? As I said, intrinsically I don't consider that communism can work. But in no way do I consider that Mao represents true communism any more than I think Jimmy Savile represents true charity.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

 

[Swansman]

true, though i'd say under Mao they did do true communism, and showed it doesn't work. advocates dont accept that, want to keep the dream alive.

So if one politician failed with communism (which was a dubious interpretation of it, but either way an attempt to create communism) failed and it shows it didn't work, then I suppose that when one politician failed with liberalism or conservatism (both of which certainly has happened), that also shows these ideologies are flawed and that the advocates for these ideologies just won't accept it?

Not to mention democratically elected politicians that failed - surely shows that democracy doesn't work and needs to be abandoned, preferably yesterday.

 

[beorhthelm]

Possibly. Not sure how writing his own little red book of communist thought, carrying out acts of unbelievably cruelty, using slavery, and the killing of 45 million of his own people fits into the doctrine of Marx, but what do I know? As I said, intrinsically I don't consider that communism can work. But in no way do I consider that Mao represents true communism any more than I think Jimmy Savile represents true charity.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

good point. i was thinking of implementing the economical model, the control economy. it was a disaster.

on the social control, seems all communist states (and social democratic) have reverted to authoritarian political structure. probably not intended by Marx but an inevitable outcome of revolution.

 

[beorhthelm]

So if one politician failed with communism (which was a dubious interpretation of it, but either way an attempt to create communism) failed and it shows it didn't work, then I suppose that when one politician failed with liberalism or conservatism (both of which certainly has happened), that also shows these ideologies are flawed and that the advocates for these ideologies just won't accept it?

Not to mention democratically elected politicians that failed - surely shows that democracy doesn't work and needs to be abandoned, preferably yesterday.

widely acknowledged liberalism, conservatism, democracy in general, have repeatedly fail to deliver utopia. however the alternatives fail more.

communism under Mao didnt fail a bit, it was catastrophic fail, and needed adoption of free market principles to resurrect the nation.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

good point. i was thinking of implementing the economical model, the control economy. it was a disaster.

on the social control, seems all communist states (and social democratic) have reverted to authoritarian political structure. probably not intended by Marx but an inevitable outcome of revolution.

Perhaps if one imagines one has brought the perfect system to your society (whatever it is) then you feel justified to imprison, maim and kill any unbelievers. Never trust anyone who claims they have THE answer. The more certain they are, the more dangerous.

Viva elections, and the orderly transition of power between governments who consider themselves servants of the people......

 

[Guinness Boy]

I reached it yesterday. But I did add that it isn't possible because too much of it is contrary to innate human imperatives (I paraphrase).

I also said yesterday that people had started violently agreeing with one another. Unfortunately the thread has now descended to "playing the man". Not only that but actually using the ball to play the man

Talking of using the ball to play the man, "no true Communism" has nothing to do with the thread title and a zero covid policy. The zero covid policy is in place because the government initially got Wuhan very wrong and allowed the virus to spread nationally and then globally. Locking down hard with that initial variant worked fine, Chinese covid numbers reduced and they were able to point to people in the West
"dying like flies". But, with Omicron and modern vaccines it is no longer the best policy. The Chinese will therefore very, very slowly work away from zero covid so as not to lose face, but they've also spent a lot of money on the policy.

Much of the above was said by a very sensible lady who was just on the Today programme who actually knows what she is talking about when it comes to China. She also said how brave the protests were because normally a single defiant gesture will get you ten years in jail.

As opposed, say, to here, where despite running not just one but SEVERAL thread criticising the Tory government over the summer, the Stasi are yet to beat down the doors of Mod Towers.

 

[chickens]

Talking of using the ball to play the man, "no true Communism" has nothing to do with the thread title and a zero covid policy. The zero covid policy is in place because the government initially got Wuhan very wrong and allowed the virus to spread nationally and then globally. Locking down hard with that initial variant worked fine, Chinese covid numbers reduced and they were able to point to people in the West
"dying like flies". But, with Omicron and modern vaccines it is no longer the best policy. The Chinese will therefore very, very slowly work away from zero covid so as not to lose face, but they've also spent a lot of money on the policy.

Much of the above was said by a very sensible lady who was just on the Today programme who actually knows what she is talking about when it comes to China. She also said how brave the protests were because normally a single defiant gesture will get you ten years in jail.

As opposed, say, to here, where despite running not just one but SEVERAL thread criticising the Tory government over the summer, the Stasi are yet to beat down the doors of Mod Towers.

Ah, but beware. Sunak’s semi-competent compared to the previous showers. The unmarked black car could pull up next to you any day.

 

[Swansman]

Talking of using the ball to play the man, "no true Communism" has nothing to do with the thread title and a zero covid policy. The zero covid policy is in place because the government initially got Wuhan very wrong and allowed the virus to spread nationally and then globally. Locking down hard with that initial variant worked fine, Chinese covid numbers reduced and they were able to point to people in the West
"dying like flies". But, with Omicron and modern vaccines it is no longer the best policy. The Chinese will therefore very, very slowly work away from zero covid so as not to lose face, but they've also spent a lot of money on the policy.

Much of the above was said by a very sensible lady who was just on the Today programme who actually knows what she is talking about when it comes to China. She also said how brave the protests were because normally a single defiant gesture will get you ten years in jail.

As opposed, say, to here, where despite running not just one but SEVERAL thread criticising the Tory government over the summer, the Stasi are yet to beat down the doors of Mod Towers.

Another western fantasy.

Yes it is brave because they don't have a real justice system so protests and criticism could result in prison (or worse...) but it is hardly the norm. Don't have to spend a lot of time on Chinese social media or forums to find people being unhappy with this or that policy or this or that CCP leader and there's plenty of artists and authors who have expressed criticism without ending up in jail or dead.

Its not safe to do it but not like the Chinese government "normally" bothers to give a shit. But yeah of course when this acts of "defiance" actually has a risk of causing major issues, the CCP will get rid of you one way or another.

widely acknowledged liberalism, conservatism, democracy in general, have repeatedly fail to deliver utopia. however the alternatives fail more.

communism under Mao didnt fail a bit, it was catastrophic fail, and needed adoption of free market principles to resurrect the nation.

The alternatives are never or rarely allowed to succeed. Plenty of South American and African countries tried socialism, not least in the 50s and 60s. What happened? The US/CIA supported and funded military dictatorships to take control over the countries. It is difficult to succeed with different ideologies when someone comes around to kill you or expel you the moment you try it - and that has very little to do with the ideologies themselves.

Liberalism and conservatism are often allowed to have "success" because they are useful for American business interests.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Another western fantasy.

Yes it is brave because they don't have a real justice system so protests and criticism could result in prison (or worse...) but it is hardly the norm. Don't have to spend a lot of time on Chinese social media or forums to find people being unhappy with this or that policy or this or that CCP leader and there's plenty of artists and authors who have expressed criticism without ending up in jail or dead.

Its not safe to do it but not like the Chinese government "normally" bothers to give a shit. But yeah of course when this acts of "defiance" actually has a risk of causing major issues, the CCP will get rid of you one way or another.

The alternatives are never or rarely allowed to succeed. Plenty of South American and African countries tried socialism, not least in the 50s and 60s. What happened? The US/CIA supported and funded military dictatorships to take control over the countries. It is difficult to succeed with different ideologies when someone comes around to kill you or expel you the moment you try it - and that has very little to do with the ideologies themselves.

Liberalism and conservatism are often allowed to have "success" because they are useful for American business interests.

Hmmm

Isabel Hilton educated in Chinese to post graduate level, former CEO of China Dialogue and journalist on Chinese affairs since the 1970s who was once put on MI5's "Christmas Tree" watch list.

Or Swansman, a Swedish bloke in a basement full of pizza boxes.

 

[Swansman]

Hmmm

Isabel Hilton educated in Chinese to post graduate level, former CEO of China Dialogue and journalist on Chinese affairs since the 1970s who was once put on MI5's "Christmas Tree" watch list.

Or Swansman, a Swedish bloke in a basement full of pizza boxes.

Your choice of course.

I'm not too interested in what Russian-based Western-experts say about the West in Russian TV or what Chinese Western-experts say about the West in Chinese TV or what Western-based China/Russia-experts say about China/Russia in Western TV. Propaganda all of it, not reliable.

 

[nicko31]

Your choice of course.

I'm not too interested in what Russian-based Western-experts say about the West in Russian TV or what Chinese Western-experts say about the West in Chinese TV or what Western-based China/Russia-experts say about China/Russia in Western TV. Propaganda all of it, not reliable.

Would you agree China and Russia based State TV, the likes of CCTV and VGTRK is propaganda?

 

[Swansman]

Would you agree China and Russia based State TV, the likes of CCTV and VGTRK is propaganda?

Of course. Or well, can't say I've watched too much Chinese state TV but their newspapers certainly are propagandistic. Worth to read if you want to know what the current agenda is or if you want to know things (such as infrastructure projects etc.) that aren't particularly political, but obviously doesn't give a fair view of what is happening in China and abroad.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Talking of using the ball to play the man, "no true Communism" has nothing to do with the thread title and a zero covid policy. The zero covid policy is in place because the government initially got Wuhan very wrong and allowed the virus to spread nationally and then globally. Locking down hard with that initial variant worked fine, Chinese covid numbers reduced and they were able to point to people in the West
"dying like flies". But, with Omicron and modern vaccines it is no longer the best policy. The Chinese will therefore very, very slowly work away from zero covid so as not to lose face, but they've also spent a lot of money on the policy.

Much of the above was said by a very sensible lady who was just on the Today programme who actually knows what she is talking about when it comes to China. She also said how brave the protests were because normally a single defiant gesture will get you ten years in jail.

As opposed, say, to here, where despite running not just one but SEVERAL thread criticising the Tory government over the summer, the Stasi are yet to beat down the doors of Mod Towers.

Every day is a school day on NSC

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Britannica sums up Communism today quite well;

"Communism today​

Despite the difficulties and dislocations wrought by the transition to a capitalist market economy, Russia and the former Soviet republics are unlikely to reestablish communist rule. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation, the successor of the CPSU, attracts some followers, but its ideology is reformist rather than revolutionary; its chief aim appears to be that of smoothing the continuing and sometimes painful transition to a market economy and trying to mitigate its more blatantly inegalitarian aspects. In China, Maoism is given lip service but no longer is put into practice. Some large industries are still state-owned, but the trend is clearly toward increasing privatization and a decentralized market economy. China is now on the verge of having a full-fledged capitalist economy. This raises the question of whether free markets and democracy can be decoupled or whether one implies the other. The CCP still brooks no opposition, as the suppression of pro-democracy student demonstrations in Tiananmen Square in 1989 made clear.


Mao’s version of Marxism-Leninism remains an active but ambiguous force elsewhere in Asia, most notably in Nepal. After a decade of armed struggle, Maoist insurgents there agreed in 2006 to lay down their arms and participate in national elections to choose an assembly to rewrite the Nepalese constitution. Claiming a commitment to multiparty democracy and a mixed economy, the Maoists emerged from the elections in 2008 as the largest party in the assembly—a party that now appears to resemble the pragmatic CCP of recent years more closely than it resembles Maoist revolutionaries of the 20th century.


Meanwhile, North Korea, the last bastion of old Soviet-style communism, is an isolated and repressive regime. Long deprived of Soviet sponsorship and subsidies, Cuba and Vietnam have been reaching out diplomatically and seeking foreign investment in their increasingly market-oriented economies, but politically both remain single-party communist states.


Today Soviet-style communism, with its command economy and top-down bureaucratic planning, is defunct. Whether that kind of regime was ever consistent with Marx’s conception of communism is doubtful. Whether anyone will lead a newmovement to build a communist society on Marxist lines remains to be seen.
Terence Ball Richard Dagger"

 

[Swansman]

Britannica sums up Communism today quite well;

"Communism today​

Despite the difficulties and dislocations wrought by the transition to a capitalist market economy, Russia and the former Soviet republics are unlikely to reestablish communist rule. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation, the successor of the CPSU, attracts some followers, but its ideology is reformist rather than revolutionary; its chief aim appears to be that of smoothing the continuing and sometimes painful transition to a market economy and trying to mitigate its more blatantly inegalitarian aspects. In China, Maoism is given lip service but no longer is put into practice. Some large industries are still state-owned, but the trend is clearly toward increasing privatization and a decentralized market economy. China is now on the verge of having a full-fledged capitalist economy. This raises the question of whether free markets and democracy can be decoupled or whether one implies the other. The CCP still brooks no opposition, as the suppression of pro-democracy student demonstrations in Tiananmen Square in 1989 made clear.


Mao’s version of Marxism-Leninism remains an active but ambiguous force elsewhere in Asia, most notably in Nepal. After a decade of armed struggle, Maoist insurgents there agreed in 2006 to lay down their arms and participate in national elections to choose an assembly to rewrite the Nepalese constitution. Claiming a commitment to multiparty democracy and a mixed economy, the Maoists emerged from the elections in 2008 as the largest party in the assembly—a party that now appears to resemble the pragmatic CCP of recent years more closely than it resembles Maoist revolutionaries of the 20th century.


Meanwhile, North Korea, the last bastion of old Soviet-style communism, is an isolated and repressive regime. Long deprived of Soviet sponsorship and subsidies, Cuba and Vietnam have been reaching out diplomatically and seeking foreign investment in their increasingly market-oriented economies, but politically both remain single-party communist states.


Today Soviet-style communism, with its command economy and top-down bureaucratic planning, is defunct. Whether that kind of regime was ever consistent with Marx’s conception of communism is doubtful. Whether anyone will lead a newmovement to build a communist society on Marxist lines remains to be seen.
Terence Ball Richard Dagger"

Yeah indeed sums up communism today: there is none.

As if that wasn't obvious from watching the rich f***ing over the poor - the main ingredient in most ideologies - all over the world.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

I haven't read the thread just clicked on the last page and have seen a discussion of communism. It got me wondering has anyone here actually ever read The Communist Manifesto fully?

I only ask because I studied Marx at uni. It was only for my undergraduate degree and only for a term but the course was based almost entirely on The Communist Manifesto...and even we didn't read the whole book so I'd be interested to know if anyone actually has.

As I remember it, and my memory isn't the best - it was over 20 years ago, Marx didn't actually talk too much about what a communist state would actually look like. The little he did describe didn't involve the deliberate starving or slaughter of the people. It actually, as my Professor stated, sounded quite a lot like Sweden. Whether Sweden has changed politically/socially in the last 20 odd years I have no idea. I just found it interesting that there was a country that was pretty close to what Marx actually talked about and that it wasn't one of the 'Communist' nations but a democracy.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I haven't read the thread just clicked on the last page and have seen a discussion of communism. It got me wondering has anyone here actually ever read The Communist Manifesto fully?

I only ask because I studied Marx at uni. It was only for my undergraduate degree and only for a term but the course was based almost entirely on The Communist Manifesto...and even we didn't read the whole book so I'd be interested to know if anyone actually has.

As I remember it, and my memory isn't the best - it was over 20 years ago, Marx didn't actually talk too much about what a communist state would actually look like. The little he did describe didn't involve the deliberate starving or slaughter of the people. It actually, as my Professor stated, sounded quite a lot like Sweden. Whether Sweden has changed politically/socially in the last 20 odd years I have no idea. I just found it interesting that there was a country that was pretty close to what Marx actually talked about and that it wasn't one of the 'Communist' nations but a democracy.

Just as the thread was finally dying you've given him an opportunity to talk about something he might actually know about.....

 

[LamieRobertson]

day three in the house …pizza boxes, macdonalds wrappers and copies of the communist manifesto lay strewn over the floor while the housemates prepare for tonight’s game and one on Chelsea’s next defeat