Ched Evans

[nwgull]

Why not ask Chad Evans, nobody is saying a few drinks and this case is not about a few drinks. But as you ask, yes men do have to take responsibility. There are girls who go out under the age of 16, a man chooses to sleep with her because she makes out she is 18
Who is responsible, ignorance is not a defence in law

Also if you need to sleep with a women when she is drunk, that says more about you then me.

Men are the only responsible people are they!! Are you saying then that all women are children who can't look after themselves? In that case shouldn't the government limit the sale of alcohol to men over the age of 18 only?

All ADULTS have to take responsibility for what they do when they've had a few shandies. Suggesting otherwise is in fact demeaning to women.

And one more thing, seeing as you've continued to mis-spell it: who the blinking flip is Chad Evans?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Why?

Well, in the hypothetical scenario, that he was refering to, the girl has led the man to believe she is 18. That's something he would absolutely (and rightly) be able to use in his defence.

 

[Steve.S]

Well, in the hypothetical scenario, that he was refering to, the girl has led the man to believe she is 18. That's something he would absolutely (and rightly) be able to use in his defence.

It actually said both parties need to take responsibility. Are we expecting children to take responsibility for sleeping with adults.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It actually said both parties need to take responsibility. Are we expecting children to take responsibility for sleeping with adults.

Don't write words for me, that I never said, or meant. Thanks.

 

[drew]

Why?

Change the scenario slightly and let's say it is a 19 year old teenager in a club chatting up a girl who is portraying herself as the same age, ie she has make up and clothes to look older than her 15 years and 364 days age. He doesn't force her and everything that happens is consensual. Should he be branded a rapist or sexual predator and sign the sex offenders register etc etc. What about the 16 year old boy who sleeps with his long standing girlfriend who just happens to be one day short of her 16th birthday.

There are probably millions of relationships that have started when both parties were having drinks, met in a pub or at party etc. Some of them might even have ended up with sex on the first night.

 

[Steve.S]

Men are the only responsible people are they!! Are you saying then that all women are children who can't look after themselves? In that case shouldn't the government limit the sale of alcohol to men over the age of 18 only?

All ADULTS have to take responsibility for what they do when they've had a few shandies. Suggesting otherwise is in fact demeaning to women.

And one more thing, seeing as you've continued to mis-spell it: who the blinking flip is Chad Evans?

You are talking bullocks, I am talking about man who rape or think they can ply women with drink so that they can sleep with her. Yes all adults including women need to take responsibility, but like it or not a man is more likely then a women to be accused of rape and a lot of rapes go unreported. So yes men do need to be more careful and it seems to me that it will become a more reported crime over the next few years.

 

[Steve.S]

Change the scenario slightly and let's say it is a 19 year old teenager in a club chatting up a girl who is portraying herself as the same age, ie she has make up and clothes to look older than her 15 years and 364 days age. He doesn't force her and everything that happens is consensual. Should he be branded a rapist or sexual predator and sign the sex offenders register etc etc. What about the 16 year old boy who sleeps with his long standing girlfriend who just happens to be one day short of her 16th birthday.

There are probably millions of relationships that have started when both parties were having drinks, met in a pub or at party etc. Some of them might even have ended up with sex on the first night.

Cases are dealt with on an individual bases. Like you say a couple of 16 and 15 and in a long term relationship would probably not go to court.

The age gap and the profession would the come into as well. A teacher who was not a few years older would never teach and face a prison sentence.
Public opinion also counts. The headline 25 year old footballer caught in bed with a 15 year old girl after night of clubbing and drinking. What would people say. Like it or not children are not responsible or should they take responsibility for an adult sleeping with them. Some people may not like it on here.

 

[nwgull]

You are talking bullocks, I am talking about man who rape or think they can ply women with drink so that they can sleep with her. Yes all adults including women need to take responsibility, but like it or not a man is more likely then a women to be accused of rape and a lot of rapes go unreported. So yes men do need to be more careful and it seems to me that it will become a more reported crime over the next few years.

I've slept with women that I wouldn't have if I hadn't had the beer goggles on; have I been raped?

 

[Steve.S]

Change the scenario slightly and let's say it is a 19 year old teenager in a club chatting up a girl who is portraying herself as the same age, ie she has make up and clothes to look older than her 15 years and 364 days age. He doesn't force her and everything that happens is consensual. Should he be branded a rapist or sexual predator and sign the sex offenders register etc etc. What about the 16 year old boy who sleeps with his long standing girlfriend who just happens to be one day short of her 16th birthday.

There are probably millions of relationships that have started when both parties were having drinks, met in a pub or at party etc. Some of them might even have ended up with sex on the first night.

Cases are dealt with on an individual bases. Like you say a couple of 16 and 15 and in a long term relationship would probably not go to court.

The age gap and the profession would the come into as well. A teacher who was not a few years older would never teach and face a prison sentence.
Public opinion also counts. The headline 25 year old footballer caught in bed with a 15 year old girl after night of clubbing and drinking. What would people say. Like it or not children are not responsible or should they take responsibility for an adult sleeping with them. Some people may not like it on here.

 

[Scunner]

I am wrong in thinking that it's in law then. That if a women is drunk that she is unable to give consent.
It's not my view that is wrong or goes against youth culture. Nobody is against young people going out having a few drinks and having consensual sex. Rape is one of the most unreported crimes and its comments like yours who trivilise drinking and sex as part of youth culture. Are you suggesting that the spiking of people's drink and getting them drunk does not happen

So you also think rape is only rape if it's forced.

You are wrong, that is not the law. This is the law as defined by the Sexual Offences Act:

A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

The Act later says (section 74) "a person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice."

Hence the link I sent previously where the common law precedent was set in 2005, as 'drunken consent is still consent' as there is no specific provision for drunkeness, only capacity.

 

[Steve.S]

I've slept with women that I wouldn't have if I hadn't had the beer goggles on; have I been raped?

A lot of people have, I have also and no doubt a few women can say the same about me. A lot of people do it and until this case, I will be honest and say I did not know drunken consent meant it's not consent. I would thing most people would put it down to a bad experience and move on. The danger these days is that a lot of famous people are less likely to get away with it. That's not to say it's only famous people and maybe through this case more people will come forward. Take a simple test, if you go out with a girl and you have to ply her with drink, buy her a kebab and walk her home and expect to have sex then you are a relic from the 80s( its a joke before anyone hits the keyboard) seriously I would be worried if someone had to get a girl drunk so that they could sleep with her.

 

[Steve.S]

You are wrong, that is not the law. This is the law as defined by the Sexual Offences Act:

A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

The Act later says (section 74) "a person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice."

Hence the link I sent previously where the common law precedent was set in 2005, as 'drunken consent is still consent' as there is no specific provision for drunkeness, only capacity.

I did ask, so it's about the capacity to give consent. So in this case the CPS deemed her drunken state to be about her capacity to give consent. Is that right

 

[symyjym]

I've slept with women that I wouldn't have if I hadn't had the beer goggles on; have I been raped?

No but if her husband then took you from behind you would have been.

 

[Steve.S]

Don't write words for me, that I never said, or meant. Thanks.

I did not say you wrote it, that's what husty wrote, but you did try and defend what he said. I just wanted to know why I child has to take some of the responsibility for sleeping with an adult, as he said both of them would be responsible

 

[drew]

A lot of people have, I have also and no doubt a few women can say the same about me. A lot of people do it and until this case, I will be honest and say I did not know drunken consent meant it's not consent. I would thing most people would put it down to a bad experience and move on. The danger these days is that a lot of famous people are less likely to get away with it. That's not to say it's only famous people and maybe through this case more people will come forward. Take a simple test, if you go out with a girl and you have to ply her with drink, buy her a kebab and walk her home and expect to have sex then you are a relic from the 80s( its a joke before anyone hits the keyboard) seriously I would be worried if someone had to get a girl drunk so that they could sleep with her.

Don't you mean you didn't know 'drunken consent is still consent'?

 

[Steve.S]

Don't you mean you didn't know 'drunken consent is still consent'?

No I meant that drunken consent could be interpreted as not capable of given consent. As I say lots of young people go out at the weekend and have one night stands and in are probably drunk, but this case has highlighted a grey area where someone could be deemed to be incapable of giving consent. As I say I have no experience in the matter or in law. I am also probably clumsily coming across as its all men's fault and that they alone are responsible. That's not my intention, however sadly men are more likely to find themselves accused of rape then a woman is. So in that sense they do have to be more careful. I read the Evans website and because he was honest with the police about sleeping with her, he was charged with rape. If had said no comment throughout his interview, he probably would not have been charged due to lack of evidence. Sobering thought

 

[symyjym]

No I meant that drunken consent could be interpreted as not capable of given consent. As I say lots of young people go out at the weekend and have one night stands and in are probably drunk, but this case has highlighted a grey area where someone could be deemed to be incapable of giving consent. As I say I have no experience in the matter or in law. I am also probably clumsily coming across as its all men's fault and that they alone are responsible. That's not my intention, however sadly men are more likely to find themselves accused of rape then a woman is. So in that sense they do have to be more careful. I read the Evans website and because he was honest with the police about sleeping with her, he was charged with rape. If had said no comment throughout his interview, he probably would not have been charged due to lack of evidence. Sobering thought

I don't know about that bit. He wouldn't have known if there was any DNA evidence and he could have got himself into even more trouble.

 

[dazzer6666]

I don't know about that bit. He wouldn't have known if there was any DNA evidence and he could have got himself into even more trouble.

Agreed - can't see that it would've helped his case.

The whole area of consent, and in particular capacity to give consent, is very complicated but bottom line is there has to be positive consent as per the statement of law posted earlier.

 

[symyjym]

Agreed - can't see that it would've helped his case.

The whole area of consent, and in particular capacity to give consent, is very complicated but bottom line is there has to be positive consent as per the statement of law posted earlier.

The law on sexual crime has to draw a line somewhere and Evans, taking the whole series of events into account, in my opinion, was dancing on it.

If he had got away with this it would have sent out the wrong message to those who also slip into this very grey area of teaming up with friends and a drunk stranger on a night out.

If this case makes men think more about their actions and take some responsibility then it's a good thing.

 

[Steve.S]

I don't know about that bit. He wouldn't have known if there was any DNA evidence and he could have got himself into even more trouble.

Well I do not know either, but that is what is posted on his website, can not see why they would lie. I think the point was that she could not remember and there was no evidence of them sleeping together. As for DNA she was in a hotel room that he had booked, so it was stand to reason that they might his DNA on her.