Ched Evans

[clippedgull]

Jessica Ennis to ask for her name to be removed from Sheff Utd stand if Ched Evans is re-employed by them (SKY)

 

[Bold Seagull]

But ulitmately having served his time, yes I feel he should be free to practice his trade and earn a living how he chooses.

What, as a teacher, nurse, solicitor, youth worker - any living he chooses right?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

There are two sides to every story even when you don't want to listen to one aspect that abhors you.

 

[Bold Seagull]

There are two sides to every story even when you don't want to listen to one aspect that abhors you.

Which is why we have an adversarial court system and a jury made up of a varied selection of 12 our peers.

 

[Steve.S]

What, as a teacher, nurse, solicitor, youth worker - any living he chooses right?

It's limited and you know that, any work with children or vulnerable people would need a CRB check and he would fail at the first hurdle. You may not like it but he was convicted by the law of the land. It's not up to people to then add laws because it suits them. Yes maybe changes need to be made and until such time he is free to work.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Which is why we have an adversarial court system and a jury made up of a varied selection of 12 our peers.

Not all verdicts are infallible and you'll only seem to find out about miscarriages of justice 25 years after the event on the rare occasions they happen.

 

[dazzer6666]

The 'truth' in this case will never be known. The Jury, based on evidence presented, found him guilty (beyond all reasonable doubt, I believe). Like it or not he is a convicted rapist that currently shows no remorse (HTF did he get parole ??). No employer in the public domain is likely to give him a job.

Quite staggered at the number of people that think he is innocent. There is a statistically small chance he might be, but people with far more knowledge of the detail of the case than anyone on here have decided he isn't.

 

[nwgull]

Not all verdicts are infallible and you'll only seem to find out about miscarriages of justice 25 years after the event on the rare occasions they happen.

Very true. It's reading discussions like these, where people have shared their experiences of jury service, that makes me ask how a 12 person jury is assembled. Is there a minimum level of intelligence or education required? I've known some proper thickos in my time who aren't classed as mentally disabled in any way; the thought that they may one day have the responsibility to pass judgement on whether someone should go to prison is concerning.

I think that a jury of peers is misnomer as well. If that was the case, the if I ever went to court facing a he said/she said charge, I'd want to see 12 university educated, regular binge drinking people who had all had their fair share of drunk casual sex and done the walk of shame a few times.

 

[Mancgull]

He does not need to admit guilt to show remorse.

As I understand it, although Evans claims he is innocent he does not dispute that he got a message from his mate telling him that he had a girl with him and decided to re-route his cab to the hotel, get a second key and let himself into the room whilst they were having sex. At which point somebody suggested that he join in. It seems a very unusual response to such a text message and begs the question to me as to what previous experience did he have to predict his friend's reaction to his arrival?

I have heard nothing from him which says that, although he disputes that he committed a crime, what he has admitted to doing was exploitative and showed an arrogance and disregard for women, was an abuse of the power granted by minor celebrity status and that he would be willing to work to educate in the dangers of treating women as being pieces of meat there for the needs of rich young men.

He has shown no sign that he admits to any culpability and until he does so, he will continue to come across as a person in a very privileged position who believes that he is the victim and expects his position of privilege back with no evidence that he has learned anything from the experience and is willing to make any effort to help to change the societal circumstances which allowed this kind of thing to happen.

I take my daughters to the football and, regardless of his rights of employment, should my football club re-employ someone who has done something like this and not made every effort possible to try to show that they regret their attitude and actions, I feel that I would have no option as a father than to cancel our tickets.

That's probably the best summary of the situation I have read or heard.

 

[dazzer6666]

Very true. It's reading discussions like these, where people have shared their experiences of jury service, that makes me ask how a 12 person jury is assembled. Is there a minimum level of intelligence or education required? I've known some proper thickos in my time who aren't classed as mentally disabled in any way; the thought that they may one day have the responsibility to pass judgement on whether someone should go to prison is concerning.

I think that a jury of peers is misnomer as well. If that was the case, the if I ever went to court facing a he said/she said charge, I'd want to see 12 university educated, regular binge drinking people who had all had their fair share of drunk casual sex and done the walk of shame a few times.

How would you define intelligence in relation to a jury ? I have worked with some fantastically highly qualified people, who have the common sense of a 5 year old. The random selection ensures a good cross section of society, and the need for a unanimous or (high) majority verdict means any real outliers can't impact the verdict. Got a better idea ?

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's limited and you know that, any work with children or vulnerable people would need a CRB check and he would fail at the first hurdle. You may not like it but he was convicted by the law of the land. It's not up to people to then add laws because it suits them. Yes maybe changes need to be made and until such time he is free to work.

Yes, I'm discussing what football and the FA need to consider to protect themselves against this happening again. My discussion points I don't feel are limited to Ched Evans, but I think it is a test case the FA needs to address and work out with the PFA how to better deal with these situations in the future - like many different professional bodies already do.

As it happens, I agree, there is no retrospective rule the FA can suddenly introduce, and unfortunately it's down to the clubs and their own moral values.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Very true. It's reading discussions like these, where people have shared their experiences of jury service, that makes me ask how a 12 person jury is assembled. Is there a minimum level of intelligence or education required? I've known some proper thickos in my time who aren't classed as mentally disabled in any way; the thought that they may one day have the responsibility to pass judgement on whether someone should go to prison is concerning.

I think that a jury of peers is misnomer as well. If that was the case, the if I ever went to court facing a he said/she said charge, I'd want to see 12 university educated, regular binge drinking people who had all had their fair share of drunk casual sex and done the walk of shame a few times.

I was only reading yesterday the case of Stefan Kiszko who did 16 years inside for sexual assault and murder after a wrongful conviction. The poor sod developed schizophrenia in jail and a forensic psychiatrist noted he had "delusions of innocence". Medical evidence which would have cleared him was suppressed by the police and not disclosed to the defence team.

 

[Beach Seagull]

You are fine to believe in Ched Evans innocence. I like, HKFC thought you were making wider implications about young women outside of the context of this case. You cleared that up in 488.

You continually use sexist language and atttiudes in the early part of this thread without making it clear that you are referring specifically to this case

This bit was horrid from post 268

"Hate the way the papers label him 'rapist' as if he is some filthy pervert waiting in a dimly lit alleyway dragging a girl into the bushes. If she had 'met' Evans before McDonald she no doubt would've gone back to his hotel with him especially when the word 'footballer' was mentioned. He didn't stand a chance at that trial in the 'all men are rapists' climate that we exist in here. "

All rape is rape and you suggest that Evans (or anyone for that matter) could have assumed consent.

post 277 - "A pervert hiding in the bushes is a rapist a guy sh*gg*ng some little t*rt who has willingly gone back to a hotel after meeting someone for 1 minute is not. She smelt the pound notes compensation when she realised he was a footballer. Dont care what the right on brigade say he is not a rapist, she was a drunken little t*rt who was pretty much anyones that night, decent young girls dont go back to a guys hotel within minutes of meeting them."

That is rape apologist language.

post 294 "Why would I have any disdain for guys who have 'pulled?' Its what blokes do!!!"

It may not have been your intention but you compare a convicted rapist to someone on a night out on the pull.

post 302 "I wonder if there would be such vitroil in the media and on here if Ched Evans was from an ethnic minority? Doubt it very much as it would be sailing too close to 'racism.' Don't remember such a backlash against Marlon King when he emerged from prison and signed for Coventry after being convicted of 'assault of young women who rejected his advances.' Don't remember (but willing to be corrected) a long condemnation thread on NSC, don't remember 'on-line petitions' either calling for him not to be employed as a professional footballer again. "

What did that have to do with it? It was you that brought up race first. A really crass point.

Those are what I based my post on which I retracted after reading post 488. Your tone definitely changed, you had a morning of being pretty vile back there.

I stand by everything I have said in this thread. If not makes me 'racist' 'sexist' and 'vile' then you are entitled to your opinion, as it is a chat forum. I believe that Ched Evans should be allowed to resume his professional career and I believe the Court of Appeal will exonorate him. Thats me out.

 

[Hamilton]

Good to see Jessica Ennis reminding Sheffield Utd of why they should not resign him. Top girl.

 

[nwgull]

How would you define intelligence in relation to a jury ? I have worked with some fantastically highly qualified people, who have the common sense of a 5 year old. The random selection ensures a good cross section of society, and the need for a unanimous or (high) majority verdict means any real outliers can't impact the verdict. Got a better idea ?

No, but your example of adults having the intelligence of a 5 year old is one of the reasons that I believe that a jury is fallible in cases like these, where the nature of the alleged offence means that there is very little evidence.

 

[nicko31]

Seems to be a real witch hunt against this guy, you'd be fooled into thinking he was the first footballer on the planet to serve time.

Luke McCormick killed 2 children and still plays for Plymouth today, surely far worse

 

[Hillian1]

Very true. It's reading discussions like these, where people have shared their experiences of jury service, that makes me ask how a 12 person jury is assembled. Is there a minimum level of intelligence or education required? I've known some proper thickos in my time who aren't classed as mentally disabled in any way; the thought that they may one day have the responsibility to pass judgement on whether someone should go to prison is concerning.

I think that a jury of peers is misnomer as well. If that was the case, the if I ever went to court facing a he said/she said charge, I'd want to see 12 university educated, regular binge drinking people who had all had their fair share of drunk casual sex and done the walk of shame a few times.

I know very many people who dropped out of education before O levels that I would much rather sit on a Jury than many of the University educated people I know.

A Jury is elected to listen to the evidence presented and judge on the facts presented to them.

I've done it twice, the cross section of people in the Jury room is as far ranging as you would get at any Football match.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Seems to be a real witch hunt against this guy, you'd be fooled into thinking he was the first footballer on the planet to serve time.

Luke McCormick killed 2 children and still plays for Plymouth today, surely far worse

Evan's just happens to be the case that is making everyone question whether there should be sanctions on footballers rejoining their profession immediately after a serious crime. I don't think it is necessarily a witch hunt on him personally, but I don't think the public, the sponsors and the media are too happy that football appears to be ambivalent about these cases, McCormick and Lee Hughes included.

 

[Acker79]

What does 'Dapper Laughs rape apologist mean? Never come across this saying before. Would you be able to provide some examples of 'all this' for me please?

It's not a saying, it's a reference to a comedian who goes by the name of 'Dapper Laughs' and a recent incident that resulted in his ITV show being cancelled. No, I hadn't heard of him before either. http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/dapper-laughs-tells-audience-member-4602725

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

There's something weird going on here. Why would 2 posters from signed up in 2010, with no posting history to speak of come out of the woodwork on this issue in particular?

- Beach Seagull vehemently defending Evans.

- Then this one is even more peculiar. Of all the crappy long threads we've had on here since May 2010, this poster comes out to tell us to stop talking about this. I would say that on a football forum, this is a fairly reasonable subject to be having a long debate about.

Fishy.

That is something that crossed my mind too