[Albion] CH “we weren’t good enough”

[sussex_guy2k2]

I'm sorry, but when you settle back and give the opposition the freedom of the park, all you have left is last-ditch blocks on their shots, as we were literally inviting them onto us, into our final third. The workrate and intensity to win the ball back simply wasn't there. The whole team needed to player about 15 yards further forward, get in their faces and apply pressure on them BEFORE they got deep into our half. There was none of that.

Then when we did get the ball, the lack of movement gave us precious little in forward options. Duffy at times was visibly exasperated when he had the ball at his feet and looked up. Invariably he'd either go sideways, or end up playing a 50 yard punt in the vague direction of an isolated Murray, who'd flick it on to no-one, and Southampton would build again. It was dogshit football, and if we repeat it in the next 2 games, then I really fear for us.

Exactly as Southampton planned. Any team that doesn't come to our place and give Duffy as much of the ball as possible at the back really isn't doing their research. He's dog shit with the ball as his feet and teams know it. Don't press Duffy, press the guy he passes to in packs. It's really simple stuff.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

:

We are not necessarily demanding a silk purse, but a good quality Egyptian cotton one would be nice.

Are we singing Salah? Yippee!

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I'm with you on all that - I agree that we didn't play well and those are observations that I shared through the game. However, had we been better in possession and beaten the press we would have fared better - they were picking the balls up often because we gave it away as a result of the high press - not simply because we sat back. Bissouma and Stephens both won the ball back in the 1st 20 mins higher up the pitch - in fact Stephens got booked for trying too hard! A little more quality from us under pressure would have been great - That is what I think Bissouma/Knockhaert were trying to do when they gave the ball away and they scored.. This is why we will struggle against City and also why a high press against them would be suicidal - they have the quality to beat that . That we were being picked off at times, the team naturally becomes more cautious - and the addage "if you cant win the game, then don't lose it" makes that happen. Southampton will have dropped deeper to defend their lead, no doubt some of their fans will have been screaming "don't sit back" - they wont have consciously done it but it happens. My angst is that with many on here the impression is that the team somehow don't care, don't work hard enough or CH somehow can't see things - he has been our most successful manager in recent times (maybe ever) and plenty on here seem to think that he doesn't understand! A high press is a tactical choice, not a symptom of levels of effort.

Sorry, but make up your mind. Which is it? Is it a tactical choice or isn't it?

 

[Bold Seagull]

It was easy enough to say within 5 minutes at the game (and I was saying it). Maybe we wouldn't have lost if CH had seen that he'd got it tactically wrong and changed it much earlier as many other managers in this league would have. But ultimately we only game into the game when Southampton went ahead and THEY changed both shape and how deep they were. This allowed us more ball in front of them which we struggled to do much with, even when we changed our shape as well.

And it's easy to say that we didn't do the simple things well and blame that, but at this stage of the season, such an excuse is a cop out bearing in mind that Saturday's performance and tactical set up has been a trend for a long while now, and the issues are the same issues that we've been facing for most of this season and a portion of last. In simple terms, we are incredibly easy to play against, particularly when Murray is our forward as teams can compress the play into our half of the pitch in the knowledge that there's no run in behind from Murray that will cause problems (unless you get a mistake ala Tomkins) and there's no real runs in behind from the midfield to break the lines. This made it incredibly easy for Southampton to hunt our best ball players in packs as they only had 5-10 yards to press at any time and they could do it both high and as a team. This often made the first pass out of defence difficult as we were being pressed so high, particularly down the left side, but also into Bissouma and Propper who were often trigger points for their press once we made that first pass out of defence; the issue was made twice as bad because these two often had to receive the ball with their back to goal deep in our own half and it flattened the midfield out, whilst also making the second pass forwards difficult with the lack of vertical movement. These things really aren't hard to see and they were obvious from the early moments of the game. So I absolutely disagree with you. The tactical set up was to blame at the weekend and it caused, and continues to cause, issues for our players given the situations they were put in.

It's not a cop out at all. You said yourself only a few weeks ago it wasn't just our shape or tactics, because as soon as Andone came on against Huddersfield we were transformed. Hughton fully realised that and went to start him the next match. You can't have it both ways either, our tactics are fatefully flawed or the players have to be on their game to enact any kind of plan.

Where we disagree is that you seem to attribute everything to tactics, and very little to how a game can evolve or unravel due to performance levels. All hypothetical of course, but had Andone been available Saturday, our tactics could have been spot on and delivered a win.

We've still got a squad at the lower end of the Premier League spectrum, both in terms of value and salaries, however our expectations are a lot higher.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Since that Palace home win we've scored just 5 times in the league at home in 8 matches, so five times a single goal, three blanks.

Two wins, two draw, fours defeats and this at a time when you'd expect the new signings to be integrated and starting to deliver.

Where is the form of the Man Utd and Palace victories, or the grit of the West Ham / Wolves / Everton victories?

Take the handbrake off, Chris!

 

[Bold Seagull]

Since that Palace home win we've scored just 5 times in the league at home in 8 matches, so five times a single goal, three blanks.

Two wins, two draw, fours defeats and this at a time when you'd expect the new signings to be integrated and starting to deliver.

Where is the form of the Man Utd and Palace victories, or the grit of the West Ham / Wolves / Everton victories?

Take the handbrake off, Chris!

If only sporting confidence were as simple as taking handbrakes on or off.

 

[chaileyjem]

.

Where is the form of the Man Utd and Palace victories, or the grit of the West Ham / Wolves / Everton victories?

Huddersfield was presumably a gritty victory.

 

[Easy 10]

Since that Palace home win we've scored just 5 times in the league at home in 8 matches, so five times a single goal, three blanks.

Two wins, two draw, fours defeats and this at a time when you'd expect the new signings to be integrated and starting to deliver.

Where is the form of the Man Utd and Palace victories, or the grit of the West Ham / Wolves / Everton victories?

Take the handbrake off, Chris!

Worrying isn't it. The Amex was the bedrock of our relatively comfortable survival last year, but this season our form at home has dipped alarmingly, whilst our away form has remained our standard cautious timid hopelessness, with the odd rare pleasant surprise here and there.

You look at our results against the teams below us this season, and its actually fairly astonishing that we're still in a position where we still have a reasonable cushion, with our fate very much still in our own hands.

I've written off the notion of getting another point on the road this season, but if we fail to harvest the points we need in the games against Cardiff, Plucky and Newcastle then frankly we don't deserve to stay up.

 

[Weststander]

Worrying isn't it. The Amex was the bedrock of our relatively comfortable survival last year, but this season our form at home has dipped alarmingly, whilst our away form has remained our standard cautious timid hopelessness, with the odd rare pleasant surprise here and there.

You look at our results against the teams below us this season, and its actually fairly astonishing that we're still in a position where we still have a reasonable cushion, with our fate very much still in our own hands.

I've written off the notion of getting another point on the road this season, but if we fail to harvest the points we need in the games against Cardiff, Plucky and Newcastle then frankly we don't deserve to stay up.

Good post.

Thank god that there are (probably) three shittier teams than us.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Worrying isn't it. The Amex was the bedrock of our relatively comfortable survival last year, but this season our form at home has dipped alarmingly, whilst our away form has remained our standard cautious timid hopelessness, with the odd rare pleasant surprise here and there.

You look at our results against the teams below us this season, and its actually fairly astonishing that we're still in a position where we still have a reasonable cushion, with our fate very much still in our own hands.

I've written off the notion of getting another point on the road this season, but if we fail to harvest the points we need in the games against Cardiff, Plucky and Newcastle then frankly we don't deserve to stay up.

There's nothing stopping Hughton picking two forwards and starting, say, Izquierdo, Locadia, Andone and Knockaert with Stephens and Propper in behind. I don't think those 6 have ever started together but its a combination I'd like to see at some stage.

 

[Easy 10]

Good post.

Thank god that there are (probably) three shittier teams than us.

Huddersfield were hopelessly out of their depth from the start and have barely invested, Fulham have been a perfect case study in how NOT to build a squad after getting promoted, whilst Cardiff's "strengthening" amounted to bringing in 4 or 5 players from the Championship (the Sala tragedy aside). Those three clubs were ill-equipped to survive in PL. Cardiff have actually done really well to still be in with a shout, at the start of the season I thought they'd be long gone by now.

We've got enough to be just about safe this season I think, but the warning signs have been there for all to see, certainly since the turn of the year. We need to do some smart business in the summer, and get back to making the Amex a fortress again if we're to keep out of serious trouble.

 

[Easy 10]

There's nothing stopping Hughton picking two forwards and starting, say, Izquierdo, Locadia, Andone and Knockaert with Stephens and Propper in behind. I don't think those 6 have ever started together but its a combination I'd like to see at some stage.

Injury has seen to it that we've rarely even had that option, not that I think Chris would try it anyway. 2 forwards worked great for us in the Championship, but he's too scared to do it in the PL.

 

[zefarelly]

What about playing propper up front with Locadia or Andone. . . .if he's good enough for the NEtherlands vs Germany . . . . . we seem to have a fair few players playing in the wrong positions FFS!

 

[Pavilionaire]

Injury has seen to it that we've rarely even had that option, not that I think Chris would try it anyway. 2 forwards worked great for us in the Championship, but he's too scared to do it in the PL.

Locadia and Andone both make runs into the channels and are highly mobile, would we really be exposing the rest of the midfield any more than the days of Murray with Gross in the hole?

 

[Easy 10]

Locadia and Andone both make runs into the channels and are highly mobile, would we really be exposing the rest of the midfield any more than the days of Murray with Gross in the hole?

You're preaching to the converted, I'd LOVE to see us being more positive and playing with 2 up top, certainly at home against the dross. Now that he's had some more gametime, Locadia is finally starting to look like he has a bit about him, and we've all seen the havoc Andone can cause in behind with his movement and pace. Murray should really be an option coming off the bench by this stage. If he's starting as a lone striker up front again next season, then whatever division we are in, something has gone drastically wrong in the summer.

 

[Weststander]

Huddersfield were hopelessly out of their depth from the start and have barely invested, Fulham have been a perfect case study in how NOT to build a squad after getting promoted, whilst Cardiff's "strengthening" amounted to bringing in 4 or 5 players from the Championship (the Sala tragedy aside). Those three clubs were ill-equipped to survive in PL. Cardiff have actually done really well to still be in with a shout, at the start of the season I thought they'd be long gone by now.

We've got enough to be just about safe this season I think, but the warning signs have been there for all to see, certainly since the turn of the year. We need to do some smart business in the summer, and get back to making the Amex a fortress again if we're to keep out of serious trouble.

Agree with that. We will soon run out of the luxury of having 3 even poorer teams in the PL. It's time to alter strategy/direction a little, and bring in two or three exceptional players, who can influence PL games. Watford is a good example of achieving that, without doing 'an Everton' in bunging £100m's at the problem.

 

[Eric Youngs Contact Lense]

Sorry, but make up your mind. Which is it? Is it a tactical choice or isn't it?

Not sure why that is unclear ? a high press is a tactical choice.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Exactly as Southampton planned. Any team that doesn't come to our place and give Duffy as much of the ball as possible at the back really isn't doing their research. He's dog shit with the ball as his feet and teams know it. Don't press Duffy, press the guy he passes to in packs. It's really simple stuff.

That'll explain the lack of movement in front of him. Football really is a tactical game of chess these days...

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

It's not a cop out at all. You said yourself only a few weeks ago it wasn't just our shape or tactics, because as soon as Andone came on against Huddersfield we were transformed. Hughton fully realised that and went to start him the next match. You can't have it both ways either, our tactics are fatefully flawed or the players have to be on their game to enact any kind of plan.

Where we disagree is that you seem to attribute everything to tactics, and very little to how a game can evolve or unravel due to performance levels. All hypothetical of course, but had Andone been available Saturday, our tactics could have been spot on and delivered a win.

We've still got a squad at the lower end of the Premier League spectrum, both in terms of value and salaries, however our expectations are a lot higher.

My expectations are that of a lower end PL team. But I do, at the same time, think we're utilising our squad poorly at times.

Tactics are important. That's a large part of the reason the very best teams are at the top because they know how to prey on the weaknesses of the opposition. The Liverpool v Spurs game was a recent match in point aside from our own against Southampton where tactical decisions were absolutely crucial to shaping the game (albeit it was actually decided by poor finishing by Spurs and their goalkeeper making a mistake). In this regard, the best managers know how to change the flow of a game and they often do that by adapting in game to focus on the players that are either weakest or having a poor game, or adapting to where the space is. CH does almost none of these things and it's why he'll never take that next step up. He's excellent at organising a team defensively, particularly when it's a backs against the wall performance and we can sit deep, but there are huge tactical flaws in him that hold him back (or maybe it's not that he has tactical flaws but that he's just too pragmatic to adapt tactically).

As to your Andone point, I said a few weeks ago (and have continued to say) that Andone changes us tactically. He stretches the opposition defensive line in a way that Murray doesn't, whilst also holding the ball well, being a capable dribbler and being a solid outlet from crosses. By pushing the opposition back he allows more space for our midfield and this gives them more time on the ball as the opposition are much less keen to press us in packs (as Southampton did) because they're afraid of a ball over the top. Now Andone can have a bad game (and he has for us), but it's this threat (which Izquierdo also offers) which tactically impacts on how the opposition sets up and this in turn has tactical implications on us too. So I'm not having it both ways. I'm having it one very clear way. And that isn't to say that I don't think managers adapt for players playing well or poorly (of course most do), but I generally would say that at this high level the tactical implications of games set match patterns and the flow of a match the majority of the time.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Not sure why that is unclear ? a high press is a tactical choice.

You've totally contradicted yourself. Go back and read the two bits I've highlighted.