[Albion] CH “we weren’t good enough”

[rippleman]

Actually, his analysis is quite sound. Huddersfield are not a Premier League outfit. They gatecrashed in through the Playoffs (with a minus GD), somehow lived off some early results in their first season, but have now found that they are completely out of their depth, as proved by the most pathetic and disastrous PL campaign since Derby.

We ARE equipped for this division, but are making such fvcking hard work of it by mincing around like its a pre-season friendly until we find ourselves a goal down, whereupon we suddenly find an extra 20% in our running, closing, movement and all-round urgency. We've clawed our way back sometimes with this trait, but shit the bed, why don't we go out and cuffing START like it.

We are infuriating.

This is what I saw again on Saturday.

Once we go behind and actually have a go at attacking we can play at pace and string some nice moves together. But as usual on Saturday we didn't think about playing until we went behind. Hughton's ten men behind the ball, sit deep then go even deeper and leave Murray isolated up front has been a recurring theme this season and to be honest, a lot of last season as well.

As we have seen time and again it's not only the big 6 who have the talent to break us down, score a goal and put us on the back foot.

Hughton's football in the PL has been turgid, uninspiring and boring. That I could certainly live with if the tactics were getting us results. But they aren't and I'm beginning to wonder if Hughton is capable of changing the way we play.

Certainly agree about Kayal. He has a far more positive and energetic view of the game than "sideways Stephens" but perhaps it is indicative of Hughton's mindset that he so rarely gets an opportunity.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Once we go behind and actually have a go at attacking we can play at pace and string some nice moves together. But as usual on Saturday we didn't think about playing until we went behind. Hughton's ten men behind the ball, sit deep then go even deeper and leave Murray isolated up front has been a recurring theme this season and to be honest, a lot of last season as well.

If we go a goal down at home and start attacking, you have to remember the opposition playing away are also sitting back defending their lead. It doesn't follow we can just start like that, and the reason why is our ball retention.

Our shape actually worked well enough, but we inexplicably gave the ball away and the initiative to Southampton as the first half wore on. Some of the mistakes indicated to me our heads weren't quite right; Jahanbakhsh trying 2 inside back heel passes, Bernardo attempting a lobbed flick pass, there were others where I really questioned that the break of 21 days between league games has drained our mental intensity.

Southampton also had their problems. If Murray was ineffective, then Danny Ings had wasted his time even putting his kit on. They lost the ball, but they did keep the ball better with more threat in the final third than we do.

It was no great shock to me a goal came from another inexplicable error from us, because despite playing badly, we still looked reasonably solid.

Once we needed a goal, and Southampton sat back on their lead, we did start to go forward, but I still felt our passing was ponderdous and lacked real confidence where players zip passes into each other.

I'm hoping it is a mental hangover from a roller coaster of a March period, mainly mentally rather than physically.

 

[zefarelly]

Thats already happened this last week!

Saturday. (Wouldn’t want you to turn up a day late!).

 

[London Irish]

I think most of us would have started with today’s line up.
Although I would like to have seen a more attacking approach I’m not sure what else we could have done. Saints were well organised and made sure Knocky, bis, Ali, etc did their dangerous stuff and tricks well away from their goal. Ironic really that Montoya was the only one to hit a decent shot.

10 out of 11 of starting line up played at Millwall and were bad. If players know there will be no accountability over struggling against poor Championship teams then we are in trouble

 

[Eric Youngs Contact Lense]

I love the arrogance on here.. every time we have the audacity to lose a game, its all about how poor we are,how poor the manager is and the apparent refusal to accept that our team is where it is.. we are in a relegation battle - we always have been, and, if we survive we will most likely be again next season. Why do some of us find it so hard to accept that, along with the bottom 10 teams, we can win or lose just about any game against those 10 teams. If we play well, and the other team is off their game, we have a great chance of winning. If we are not at our best and the other teams play well, we will most likely lose. The stronger teams have off days but get something because in the one or two moments that they do get in every game, they are more likely to take them because of the quality they have. We have players who can make mistakes, or fluff their lines at crucial moments sometimes - so do Southampton, Palace, Burnley, Fulham, West Ham, Newcastle etc etc.
There's no doubt we were relatively poor for the majority of the game. And yet, we were still very much "in it" despite being poor. Indeed, had the ball not been given away by Bissouma, we may have nicked a win, or secured a draw - Maty Ryan didn't have a save to make as far as I remember? Southampton were in my opinion as good coming forward as any other team outside of the top 6 - they played pretty well. The system we have, won us 3 points at Palace. It has won us 33 points by the end of March, with a great chance of staying up.

 

[Easy 10]

I love the arrogance on here.. every time we have the audacity to lose a game, its all about how poor we are,how poor the manager is and the apparent refusal to accept that our team is where it is.. we are in a relegation battle - we always have been, and, if we survive we will most likely be again next season. Why do some of us find it so hard to accept that, along with the bottom 10 teams, we can win or lose just about any game against those 10 teams. If we play well, and the other team is off their game, we have a great chance of winning. If we are not at our best and the other teams play well, we will most likely lose. The stronger teams have off days but get something because in the one or two moments that they do get in every game, they are more likely to take them because of the quality they have. We have players who can make mistakes, or fluff their lines at crucial moments sometimes - so do Southampton, Palace, Burnley, Fulham, West Ham, Newcastle etc etc.
There's no doubt we were relatively poor for the majority of the game. And yet, we were still very much "in it" despite being poor. Indeed, had the ball not been given away by Bissouma, we may have nicked a win, or secured a draw - Maty Ryan didn't have a save to make as far as I remember? Southampton were in my opinion as good coming forward as any other team outside of the top 6 - they played pretty well. The system we have, won us 3 points at Palace. It has won us 33 points by the end of March, with a great chance of staying up.

Are you not concerned at the sheer crushing lethargy of our performance though ? The lack of urgency, the lack of pressing, the lack of intensity ? Even if we're playing poorly, these are BASICS that I would expect from us, the bare minimum. I want to see us closing them down, getting in their faces, getting challenges in high up the pitch, not giving them the time on the ball. Knocky was the only one running around TRYING to get the ball off them in their half, but he can't do it all on his own.

The team as a collective simply didn't work hard enough, and that is unforgivable. A better team than Southampton would've ripped us a new one. As it is, all we did is give them a very comfortable afternoon, and the most straightforward 3 points they've probably had all season.

Not good enough. Not even close.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

If we go a goal down at home and start attacking, you have to remember the opposition playing away are also sitting back defending their lead. It doesn't follow we can just start like that, and the reason why is our ball retention.

Our shape actually worked well enough, but we inexplicably gave the ball away and the initiative to Southampton as the first half wore on. Some of the mistakes indicated to me our heads weren't quite right; Jahanbakhsh trying 2 inside back heel passes, Bernardo attempting a lobbed flick pass, there were others where I really questioned that the break of 21 days between league games has drained our mental intensity.

Southampton also had their problems. If Murray was ineffective, then Danny Ings had wasted his time even putting his kit on. They lost the ball, but they did keep the ball better with more threat in the final third than we do.

It was no great shock to me a goal came from another inexplicable error from us, because despite playing badly, we still looked reasonably solid.

Once we needed a goal, and Southampton sat back on their lead, we did start to go forward, but I still felt our passing was ponderdous and lacked real confidence where players zip passes into each other.

I'm hoping it is a mental hangover from a roller coaster of a March period, mainly mentally rather than physically.

It's not inexplicable at all. CH got tactically outsmarted on Saturday and that was painfully obvious within 5 minutes of the game starting. They pushed up, compressing the game and with no outlet ball in behind and a flat 5, we couldn't play past the first press. They let Duffy have as much of the ball as he wanted because they know thee guy can't pass for toffee beyond a 5 yard ball to either his CB partner or our RB, but they then pressed in groups against our most effective ball players. We allowed them to do that by starting with the personnel we had and the flat midfield we started with. Saturday's on CH and the fact that he didn't change the shape until the 70th minute is an insult to fans quite frankly.

 

[Aveacarlin']

Are you not concerned at the sheer crushing lethargy of our performance though ? The lack of urgency, the lack of pressing, the lack of intensity ? Even if we're playing poorly, these are BASICS that I would expect from us, the bare minimum. I want to see us closing them down, getting in their faces, getting challenges in high up the pitch, not giving them the time on the ball. Knocky was the only one running around TRYING to get the ball off them in their half, but he can't do it all on his own.

The team as a collective simply didn't work hard enough, and that is unforgivable. A better team than Southampton would've ripped us a new one. As it is, all we did is give them a very comfortable afternoon, and the most straightforward 3 points they've probably had all season.

Not good enough. Not even close.

Spot on post.

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[Eric Youngs Contact Lense]

I am disappointed - gutted about the result. But I don't assume that it is a fundamental flaw in the tactics, and can accept that we will have poor performances through a season - that aren't simply a question of attitude or hard-work or tactics. I can reflect and see that despite being so poor, we weren't "ripped a new one" - the blocks made, the "revival" in the last 20 minutes show me that we were working hard, but hadn't been able impose ourselves on a team that I think played pretty well against us. . I struggle with the assumption every time we lose that it has to be about our work rate or our tactics. Why would the players not go out and work hard? We all sound like school teachers marking books after a crap day - "Not good enough" "Must Try Harder" "See me". Its dull and sounds arrogant to me..

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's not inexplicable at all. CH got tactically outsmarted on Saturday and that was painfully obvious within 5 minutes of the game starting. They pushed up, compressing the game and with no outlet ball in behind and a flat 5, we couldn't play past the first press. They let Duffy have as much of the ball as he wanted because they know thee guy can't pass for toffee beyond a 5 yard ball to either his CB partner or our RB, but they then pressed in groups against our most effective ball players. We allowed them to do that by starting with the personnel we had and the flat midfield we started with. Saturday's on CH and the fact that he didn't change the shape until the 70th minute is an insult to fans quite frankly.

It is always easy enough to say tactically outsmarted when we lose, rather than blame the performance of the players. We set up with Propper and Bissouma getting more forward to help the wingers get the ball, with Bissouma close to Knocky and Montoya, Propper to the left with Jahanbakhsh and Bernardo. I don't agree with you that tactically it was a flat 5, it ended up a flat 5 at times, because yes Southampton pressed, but we didn't do simple things well enough to make our shape work for us, not until the last half hour at least.

Bissouma held our midfield together for the first 20 mins or so, and drove us forwards when we did rarely look threatening, but Propper wasn't on his game, Jahanbakhsh and Bernardo simply got nothing going, and Southampton did grow because we didn't threaten, not the other way. They started to take more risks because we weren't causing them problems. The tactics didn't work because we had too many players not 100% on it.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I am disappointed - gutted about the result. But I don't assume that it is a fundamental flaw in the tactics, and can accept that we will have poor performances through a season - that aren't simply a question of attitude or hard-work or tactics. I can reflect and see that despite being so poor, we weren't "ripped a new one" - the blocks made, the "revival" in the last 20 minutes show me that we were working hard, but hadn't been able impose ourselves on a team that I think played pretty well against us. . I struggle with the assumption every time we lose that it has to be about our work rate or our tactics. Why would the players not go out and work hard? We all sound like school teachers marking books after a crap day - "Not good enough" "Must Try Harder" "See me". Its dull and sounds arrogant to me..

Agree with that. Been saying on other threads, the 21 days between league games, the roller coaster of the cup, the international break, all contributed to us being just off the pace in games that are always really fine margins.

 

[Javeaseagull]

Yes Bissouma gave the ball away but Duffy slipping was far more relevant imo. How that is the fault of CH as some like to make out is beyond me.
I smile when some call for CH to be sacked when Hyppia, who was far worse and still wasn’t sacked, he resigned.
The only job for Chris this season is to stay up. The Cup run is a bonus and involved a bit of luck.
If we go down we may well re-assess then but not before.

 

[Easy 10]

I am disappointed - gutted about the result. But I don't assume that it is a fundamental flaw in the tactics, and can accept that we will have poor performances through a season - that aren't simply a question of attitude or hard-work or tactics. I can reflect and see that despite being so poor, we weren't "ripped a new one" - the blocks made, the "revival" in the last 20 minutes show me that we were working hard, but hadn't been able impose ourselves on a team that I think played pretty well against us. . I struggle with the assumption every time we lose that it has to be about our work rate or our tactics. Why would the players not go out and work hard? We all sound like school teachers marking books after a crap day - "Not good enough" "Must Try Harder" "See me". Its dull and sounds arrogant to me..

I'm sorry, but when you settle back and give the opposition the freedom of the park, all you have left is last-ditch blocks on their shots, as we were literally inviting them onto us, into our final third. The workrate and intensity to win the ball back simply wasn't there. The whole team needed to player about 15 yards further forward, get in their faces and apply pressure on them BEFORE they got deep into our half. There was none of that.

Then when we did get the ball, the lack of movement gave us precious little in forward options. Duffy at times was visibly exasperated when he had the ball at his feet and looked up. Invariably he'd either go sideways, or end up playing a 50 yard punt in the vague direction of an isolated Murray, who'd flick it on to no-one, and Southampton would build again. It was dogshit football, and if we repeat it in the next 2 games, then I really fear for us.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'm sorry, but when you settle back and give the opposition the freedom of the park, all you have left is last-ditch blocks on their shots, as we were literally inviting them onto us, into our final third. The workrate and intensity to win the ball back simply wasn't there. The whole team needed to player about 15 yards further forward, get in their faces and apply pressure on them BEFORE they got deep into our half. There was none of that.

Then when we did get the ball, the lack of movement gave us precious little in forward options. Duffy at times was visibly exasperated when he had the ball at his feet and looked up. Invariably he'd either go sideways, or end up playing a 50 yard punt in the vague direction of an isolated Murray, who'd flick it on to no-one, and Southampton would build again. It was dogshit football, and if we repeat it in the next 2 games, then I really fear for us.

You're not really disagreeing with [MENTION=28272]Eric Youngs Contact Lense[/MENTION] or my previous post either though. I don't disagree with what you're saying, and agree we lacked bite, and collective pressing. But I'm really not sure that was tactical, I didn't see a team that wasn't trying in those first 20 mins, Bissouma in particular was trying desperately to get us forward, but if you give the ball away almost immediately after getting it, pressing is not something you can keep on doing. I did think a few of them weren't mentally right given how big it was.

I fear for us like you, because the threat is very real, but like I suspect you are as well, I'm quietly confident we will find out way in games again and get a few more wins under our belt.

 

[Rugrat]

Yeah, and putting out a performance is the job of the players. So what's your point apart from being sarcastic?

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Yes, a touch sarcastic but Hughton made that statement himself and it's pretty revealing. I don't buy (to any great degree) the argument that Southampton just sat back and let us play. What I saw was a team that demonstrably upped their tempo pushed forward with more conviction and 'put it about' a bit more.

Even if he can't influence them from the touchline he really should be able to during the half time break. He didn't and that is very disappointing

 

[B52]

CH has already stated in the press that if the players aren't up for it on Wednesday (Chelsea) then they'll get beat. Simples.

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Surely it is Chris's job to make sure the players are up for it FFS

 

[Aveacarlin']

Surely it is Chris's job to make sure the players are up for it FFS

Yeah, that's his remit but fundamentally it's down to the players over the 90 minutes.

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[Eric Youngs Contact Lense]

I'm sorry, but when you settle back and give the opposition the freedom of the park, all you have left is last-ditch blocks on their shots, as we were literally inviting them onto us, into our final third. The workrate and intensity to win the ball back simply wasn't there. The whole team needed to player about 15 yards further forward, get in their faces and apply pressure on them BEFORE they got deep into our half. There was none of that.

Then when we did get the ball, the lack of movement gave us precious little in forward options. Duffy at times was visibly exasperated when he had the ball at his feet and looked up. Invariably he'd either go sideways, or end up playing a 50 yard punt in the vague direction of an isolated Murray, who'd flick it on to no-one, and Southampton would build again. It was dogshit football, and if we repeat it in the next 2 games, then I really fear for us.

I'm with you on all that - I agree that we didn't play well and those are observations that I shared through the game. However, had we been better in possession and beaten the press we would have fared better - they were picking the balls up often because we gave it away as a result of the high press - not simply because we sat back. Bissouma and Stephens both won the ball back in the 1st 20 mins higher up the pitch - in fact Stephens got booked for trying too hard! A little more quality from us under pressure would have been great - That is what I think Bissouma/Knockhaert were trying to do when they gave the ball away and they scored.. This is why we will struggle against City and also why a high press against them would be suicidal - they have the quality to beat that . That we were being picked off at times, the team naturally becomes more cautious - and the addage "if you cant win the game, then don't lose it" makes that happen. Southampton will have dropped deeper to defend their lead, no doubt some of their fans will have been screaming "don't sit back" - they wont have consciously done it but it happens. My angst is that with many on here the impression is that the team somehow don't care, don't work hard enough or CH somehow can't see things - he has been our most successful manager in recent times (maybe ever) and plenty on here seem to think that he doesn't understand! A high press is a tactical choice, not a symptom of levels of effort.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

It is always easy enough to say tactically outsmarted when we lose, rather than blame the performance of the players. We set up with Propper and Bissouma getting more forward to help the wingers get the ball, with Bissouma close to Knocky and Montoya, Propper to the left with Jahanbakhsh and Bernardo. I don't agree with you that tactically it was a flat 5, it ended up a flat 5 at times, because yes Southampton pressed, but we didn't do simple things well enough to make our shape work for us, not until the last half hour at least.

Bissouma held our midfield together for the first 20 mins or so, and drove us forwards when we did rarely look threatening, but Propper wasn't on his game, Jahanbakhsh and Bernardo simply got nothing going, and Southampton did grow because we didn't threaten, not the other way. They started to take more risks because we weren't causing them problems. The tactics didn't work because we had too many players not 100% on it.

It was easy enough to say within 5 minutes at the game (and I was saying it). Maybe we wouldn't have lost if CH had seen that he'd got it tactically wrong and changed it much earlier as many other managers in this league would have. But ultimately we only game into the game when Southampton went ahead and THEY changed both shape and how deep they were. This allowed us more ball in front of them which we struggled to do much with, even when we changed our shape as well.

And it's easy to say that we didn't do the simple things well and blame that, but at this stage of the season, such an excuse is a cop out bearing in mind that Saturday's performance and tactical set up has been a trend for a long while now, and the issues are the same issues that we've been facing for most of this season and a portion of last. In simple terms, we are incredibly easy to play against, particularly when Murray is our forward as teams can compress the play into our half of the pitch in the knowledge that there's no run in behind from Murray that will cause problems (unless you get a mistake ala Tomkins) and there's no real runs in behind from the midfield to break the lines. This made it incredibly easy for Southampton to hunt our best ball players in packs as they only had 5-10 yards to press at any time and they could do it both high and as a team. This often made the first pass out of defence difficult as we were being pressed so high, particularly down the left side, but also into Bissouma and Propper who were often trigger points for their press once we made that first pass out of defence; the issue was made twice as bad because these two often had to receive the ball with their back to goal deep in our own half and it flattened the midfield out, whilst also making the second pass forwards difficult with the lack of vertical movement. These things really aren't hard to see and they were obvious from the early moments of the game. So I absolutely disagree with you. The tactical set up was to blame at the weekend and it caused, and continues to cause, issues for our players given the situations they were put in.

 

[kjgood]

Are you not concerned at the sheer crushing lethargy of our performance though ? The lack of urgency, the lack of pressing, the lack of intensity ? Even if we're playing poorly, these are BASICS that I would expect from us, the bare minimum. I want to see us closing them down, getting in their faces, getting challenges in high up the pitch, not giving them the time on the ball. Knocky was the only one running around TRYING to get the ball off them in their half, but he can't do it all on his own.

The team as a collective simply didn't work hard enough, and that is unforgivable. A better team than Southampton would've ripped us a new one. As it is, all we did is give them a very comfortable afternoon, and the most straightforward 3 points they've probably had all season.

Not good enough. Not even close.

And if we play like that against Cardiff they will beat us.