catalonia independence vote......

[Worthingite]

Thank god, it doesn't affect BG. I can sleep at night now, knowing that he isn't going to have to deal with the concerns of the Spanish people

 

[BensGrandad]

Thank god, it doesn't affect BG. I can sleep at night now, knowing that he isn't going to have to deal with the concerns of the Spanish people

AllI want is an explanation of how it will affect not just me but the vast majority of UK citizens

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I would have thought that Barcelona is a banking and IT centre which could easily be transferred to Madrid if needed. I would have thought that virually nothing is manufactured or grown in Barcelona area and on the tourist side I would think it is much less than the Costas.

Catalonia is by far the most popular area. There would also be an impact on Spain's economy if many financial assets are transferred (just as with Brexit/EU). Catalonia contributes more to Spain than California does to the USA. Catalonia is the top region of Spain for exports, with 25% of Spain's output. So all of your points are way way off the mark.

 

[BensGrandad]

Catalonia is by far the most popular area. There would also be an impact on Spain's economy if many financial assets are transferred (just as with Brexit/EU). Catalonia contributes more to Spain than California does to the USA. Catalonia is the top region of Spain for exports, with 25% of Spain's output. So all of your points are way way off the mark.

View attachment 90802

What I am asking is Catalonia just the control point and administrative point or do goods actually come from other parts of Spain through there to the rest of Europe. Obviously there is a lot of fruit and vergatables exported from Spain to the UK but would they come from or through Catalonia. I would think that tourism is similar to London it is because it is the major city of the area, the majority of which would be short stays of 7 days or less. I dont know just asking.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

What I am asking is Catalonia just the control point and administrative point or do goods actually come from other parts of Spain through there to the rest of Europe. Obviously there is a lot of fruit and vergatables exported from Spain to the UK but would they come from or through Catalonia. I would think that tourism is similar to London it is because it is the major city of the area, the majority of which would be short stays of 7 days or less. I dont know just asking.

You make wrong assumptions and then are shown why. Then you shift your premise/question. You don't know when to stop. I do, I give up.

 

[BensGrandad]

It is all part of the same question which hasnt been explained as yet only hinted at and that is How will it affect the vast majority of UK citizens. I can accept what you say about it being the centre of commerce and tourism but could that not be switched elsewhere like Madrid over a period of time. As this has been ongoing for some years one would have expected moves to have been made to have started that process. I am sure that if that happened in Scotland, Wales or Cornwall companies would be quick to re-locate.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

12 Catalan leaders jailed for over 100 combined years. Protesters marching on the airport (in BCN) and major roads/train stations. Police are already getting heavy handed at that's just the Mossos, the Guardia Civil haven't arrived yet. I fear for the protesters.

[tweet]1183718933041422337[/tweet]

https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/1183718933041422337?s=20

 

[blue-shifted]

Jailing these politicians is absolutely the worst thing that could have happened for national unity in Spain. The independence movement now have martyrs to get behind.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Wont be long before the police over here have the power to use excessive force.
All part of the plan to keep us in our place

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Wont be long before the police over here have the power to use excessive force.
All part of the plan to keep us in our place

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

You've obviously never tried to leave a police 'kettle' in London

 

[Nottseagull]

Can we lock up Nicola Sturgeon if the Scotch Parliament decides to hold a non-binding independence referendum?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Can we lock up Nicola Sturgeon if the Scotch Parliament decides to hold a non-binding independence referendum?

I say let the Scots vote now.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

And here comes the tear gas. I completely disagree with what they are protesting for but there has been little to no dialogue, the Spanish state wont solve this with imprisonment & a police crackdown.

[tweet]1183759345852522496[/tweet]

 

[Simster]

Totally agree with you [MENTION=24493]Rodney Thomas[/MENTION].

The whole Catalonia independence movement is inherently flawed for a number of reasons, but locking up the politicians leading it is every bit as undemocratic and can only serve to undermine stability. The correct solution was surely to negotiate a potential degree of autonomy (perhaps using the UK as a model), then allow the Catalan and Spanish people at large to vote on it.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Totally agree with you [MENTION=24493]Rodney Thomas[/MENTION].

The whole Catalonia independence movement is inherently flawed for a number of reasons, but locking up the politicians leading it is every bit as undemocratic and can only serve to undermine stability. The correct solution was surely to negotiate a potential degree of autonomy (perhaps using the UK as a model), then allow the Catalan and Spanish people at large to vote on it.

Instead they do this:

[tweet]1183762868094881794[/tweet]

 

[Stephen Seagull]

Totally agree with you [MENTION=24493]Rodney Thomas[/MENTION].

The whole Catalonia independence movement is inherently flawed for a number of reasons, but locking up the politicians leading it is every bit as undemocratic and can only serve to undermine stability. The correct solution was surely to negotiate a potential degree of autonomy (perhaps using the UK as a model), then allow the Catalan and Spanish people at large to vote on it.

Having lived here for almost 15 years, can you explain how the movement is inherently flawed?

 

[Simster]

Having lived here for almost 15 years, can you explain how the movement is inherently flawed?

Yes. The main reason is that under the rule of General Franco, Catalan culture was obviously suppressed like every other nation within that nation. So in order to appease Catalonians, he moved an awful lot of industry there, with the obvious result that Catalonia became an awful lot wealthier than it otherwise would have been. That issue wasn't addressed at all by the independence movement.

Additionally, Catalonia has not really ever been an independent state either - certainly not since Spain was formed in about the year 1100 or some such. It's not like the former Soviet or Yugoslav states. It's not even like Wales. It's more like Cornwall. As such, full independence ought to have an overwhelming majority to pass, not some flimsy hastily-put together motion based on a brief power grab from nationalists. It's absolutely absurd.

 

[Stephen Seagull]

Yes. The main reason is that under the rule of General Franco, Catalan culture was obviously suppressed like every other nation within that nation. So in order to appease Catalonians, he moved an awful lot of industry there, with the obvious result that Catalonia became an awful lot wealthier than it otherwise would have been. That issue wasn't addressed at all by the independence movement.

Additionally, Catalonia has not really ever been an independent state either - certainly not since Spain was formed in about the year 1100 or some such. It's not like the former Soviet or Yugoslav states. It's not even like Wales. It's more like Cornwall. As such, full independence ought to have an overwhelming majority to pass, not flimsy hastily-put together motions based on a brief power grab from nationalists. It's absolutely absurd.

It goes back a lot farther than Franco ruling Spain. Catalonia was, initially, part of the Aragon crown before the Castillian king took over and unified the crowns to what is now considered Spain. Catalunya back then held a lot of freedom from the Aragonese monarchy with only the counts having to pay taxes to them. Laws and decisions were predominantly made by the Catalan lords.

The civil war of 1714 is where most Catalans believe they lost their independence, even though they were never really an independent state, they never had to abide by the Spanish monarchy.

Since I arrived back in 2005 the independence movement has grown in interest over here and there are a lot of underlying reasons that most people (especially those who are not here) wont know or understand

 

[Rodney Thomas]

It goes back a lot farther than Franco ruling Spain. Catalonia was, initially, part of the Aragon crown before the Castillian king took over and unified the crowns to what is now considered Spain. Catalunya back then held a lot of freedom from the Aragonese monarchy with only the counts having to pay taxes to them. Laws and decisions were predominantly made by the Catalan lords.

The civil war of 1714 is where most Catalans believe they lost their independence, even though they were never really an independent state, they never had to abide by the Spanish monarchy.

Since I arrived back in 2005 the independence movement has grown in interest over here and there are a lot of underlying reasons that most people (especially those who are not here) wont know or understand

Personally, I believe that independence advocates fall into two categories: wealthy conservative and young radical. To me, this makes the independence movement fundamentally flawed as you have diametrically radical and varied reasons for ceding from Spain. The conservatives believe that their wealth is taken to fund poorer parts of Spain which, although partially true, does not really show the whole picture when you account for regional spending & borrowing or the extra money required once independence was achieved. The radicals feel they can build a socialist utopia if they leave 'fascist' Spain. I would question this as outside of Barcelona and a few other metropolitan areas Catalunya remains deeply conservative (take bull fighting and blood sports as an example). My personal view is that the large gulf in ideology between these unlikely bedfellows does show that the movement is at least partially flawed. The cultural heritage argument is harder to question as a foreigner but again I believe that is partially flawed also.

I am not against the principle of Catalans being able to vote on self-determination but from my point of view a solid unionist campaign along with the additional autonomy for the region would safely win such a vote (and, again, in my opinion, rightly so).

 

[Wardy's twin]

Maybe we should start to question the concept of what is a nation state. We know that many of the nation states arrived by 'accident' and we know that many borders split kindred people's. We know that in this modern world that globalisation has eroded borders for many of the things that previously happened only within a border. One fact to bear in mind is Catalonia was an independent entity for 200 years in the middle ages which is much longer than Poland or many of the Balkan states and indeed longer than Germany or Italy.

My personal view is that the people of Catalonia should be listened to, not imposed upon and the situation is not very different to Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. By my logic there would be a country called Kurdistan (or similar). Whether they become separate states or autonomous regions within a nation state will depend on the individual groups involved to arrive at at agreement.