catalonia independence vote......

[Giraffe]

Much as we.might dislike her , she did it properly , and the (small) majority of catalans want to remain part of spain.

Only because we allowed her to. Had Spain allowed Catalonia to have their referendum properly then maybe they would have had a similar result?

And you can't have a small majority. The referendum, although flawed, pointed only in one direction.

 

[alfredmizen]

Only because we allowed her to. Had Spain allowed Catalonia to have their referendum properly then maybe they would have had a similar result?

And you can't have a small majority. The referendum, although flawed, pointed only in one direction.

43% of Catalans intend to vote for pro Spain parties, 42% intend to vote for separatist parties ,that’s a small majority , I’m not going to argue with you as I pretty much agree with everything else you post.

 

[Giraffe]

43% of Catalans intend to vote for pro Spain parties, 42% intend to vote for separatist parties ,that’s a small majority , I’m not going to argue with you as I pretty much agree with everything else you post.

It's a technical point but a majority is >50%. I've not seen any measures that suggest that more than 50% of Catalonions wish to remain a part of Spain but I may have missed it?

 

[Jim D]

The heat just went up a notch.

"Spain's chief prosecutor has announced charges including rebellion and sedition against Catalan leaders following the region's declaration of independence."

Imagine if we had acted like that against Nicola Sturgeon!

I think at that time it was Alex Salmond. Now, seeing him on trial for treason would have been an interesting sight.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Girona, a team from Catalunya newly-promoted to the Primera Division (and apparently the team supported by Carlos Puigdemont), beat Real Madrid 2-1 this afternoon.

A good friend of mine had a ten match accumulator running this weekend, where this BANKER for Real Madrid was the final result he needed, to collect £1,077.00.

His cash out offer before kick off was £887.00 and we told him to take it. He refused, as there was NO WAY Real would not win.

I don't know what his cash out reached at half time with Real 1-0 up, but whatever it was he didn't take it.

The greedy FOOL.

 

[Giraffe]

I think at that time it was Alex Salmond. Now, seeing him on trial for treason would have been an interesting sight.

Now that would have been very entertaining - much like seeing Little Finger in his last scene (forgive the Game of Thrones reference).

 

[Frutos]

A good friend of mine had a ten match accumulator running this weekend, where this BANKER for Real Madrid was the final result he needed, to collect £1,077.00.

His cash out offer before kick off was £887.00 and we told him to take it. He refused, as there was NO WAY Real would not win.

I don't know what his cash out reached at half time with Real 1-0 up, but whatever it was he didn't take it.

The greedy FOOL.

Ouch, that has got to hurt.

As you say though, serves him right for his greed.

 

[alfredmizen]

It's a technical point but a majority is >50%. I've not seen any measures that suggest that more than 50% of Catalonions wish to remain a part of Spain but I may have missed it?

Fair enough , i dont think theres been anything to show that a majority want independence though ?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Fair enough , i dont think theres been anything to show that a majority want independence though ?

Agreed.

Zero point in trying to rely on the referendum vote, which took place AFTER the government declared it void, meaning that many No voters will have not felt the need to cast their vote.

 

[alfredmizen]

Agreed.

Zero point in trying to rely on the referendum vote, which took place AFTER the government declared it void, meaning that many No voters will have not felt the need to cast their vote.

Friend of mine , describes himself as 100%catalan and 100% spanish , speaks catalan at home to his parents , is very pissed off about it .

 

[Pavilionaire]

The thing about this story is that it was all so avoidable. The right thing to do is for the federal government to announce there will be an independence referendum in, say, 6 weeks time to be scrutinised by UN electoral overseers to ensure it is fair, and run it along similar lines to the Scottish Independence Referendum. But that won't happen.

I feel sorry for the Catalan people. Those who favour independence will feel they're being shafted by Madrid once more, while those who favour continued union inside Spain will feel distraught by the announcement of independence. Families, friends and work colleagues will have been divided over the issue and those scars will run deep for many years to come.

 

[Simster]

The thing about this story is that it was all so avoidable. The right thing to do is for the federal government to announce there will be an independence referendum in, say, 6 weeks time to be scrutinised by UN electoral overseers to ensure it is fair, and run it along similar lines to the Scottish Independence Referendum. But that won't happen.

It was entirely avoidable but the problem with your solution is that the leader of the Catalan independence movement will then have got what he wanted, simply because he held an illegal election.

My solution would be a tinkering with the Spanish constitution such that the rights of inner nations to self determination are guaranteed. Then and only then should a referendum be allowed, triggerable by devolved regional parliaments. And in line with most major referendums, independence should only be allowed with a majority of something like 60-66% (not just an outright majority).

 

[Pavilionaire]

It was entirely avoidable but the problem with your solution is that the leader of the Catalan independence movement will then have got what he wanted, simply because he held an illegal election.

My solution would be a tinkering with the Spanish constitution such that the rights of inner nations to self determination are guaranteed. Then and only then should a referendum be allowed, triggerable by devolved regional parliaments. And in line with most major referendums, independence should only be allowed with a majority of something like 60-66% (not just an outright majority).

I take your point but "the cat is out of the bag" now and my Referendum suggestion was made in light of the actual situation as it stands.

I agree that Madrid should not have left themselves open to an illegal referendum but 92% of 43% of registered voters voted for independence in that illegal referendum, thereby demonstrating the strength of feeling of Catalan nationalists. Getting 2 million people to turn out in a vote already rendered null and void is quite something.

 

[Simster]

I take your point but "the cat is out of the bag" now and my Referendum suggestion was made in light of the actual situation as it stands.

I agree that Madrid should not have left themselves open to an illegal referendum but 92% of 43% of registered voters voted for independence in that illegal referendum, thereby demonstrating the strength of feeling of Catalan nationalists. Getting 2 million people to turn out in a vote already rendered null and void is quite something.

But it was illegal, so the result is completely meaningless. There was no mechanism discussed openly for staying within Spain as a separate entity. There was no appetite from the separatists to instigate discussion with other Spanish "nations" to have the constitution amended to allow for greater regional autonomy. It was a case of the separatists winning a vote and deciding their way or the highway, with no thought towards other solutions. It is largely agreed that the Brexit referendum was a total shambles the way it was conducted. If that is the case, then this has been 20 times worse. You can't split a nation under those conditions, surely?

 

[Pavilionaire]

But it was illegal, so the result is completely meaningless. There was no mechanism discussed openly for staying within Spain as a separate entity. There was no appetite from the separatists to instigate discussion with other Spanish "nations" to have the constitution amended to allow for greater regional autonomy. It was a case of the separatists winning a vote and deciding their way or the highway, with no thought towards other solutions. It is largely agreed that the Brexit referendum was a total shambles the way it was conducted. If that is the case, then this has been 20 times worse. You can't split a nation under those conditions, surely?

But you can't undo what has already been done. 2 million Catalans voted for independence so there is an appetite for change from at least 40% of the Catalan electorate. The only way to get closure on this issue is to have the Referendum.

The Czechs and Slovaks managed an amicable split, and whilst the Yugoslavian split was messy there is now peace, stability and prosperity in the region. And the logistics of Catalan independence are but a mere trifle compared to Brexit.

 

[bhaseeer]

saying something is illegal doesn't change the fact it occured.

it's like me saying the weather last week was illegal.

europe is fascist - it just wants more centralisation.

blockchain tech will sort all this out in a few years time.

 

[dingodan]

Spain has lost it's mind.

Spanish judge has ordered nine ex-members of the government in Catalonia jailed while they are investigated on possible charges of sedition, rebellion and embezzlement...

Spain's state prosecutor on Thursday asked a High Court judge to issue a European arrest warrant for ousted Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...aders-arrive-madrid-court-without-puigdemont/

 

[dingodan]

This article is interesting, sounds like solid grounds for appeal.

...The National Court itself, expressly rejected its own jurisdiction to judge the crimes of rebellion in a hearing in December of 2008. “The crime of rebellion has never been within the competence of this National Court”, the court declared in a writ by magistrate Javier Gómez Bermúdez as president of the Criminal Court, at that time.

The Court rejected the prosecution of the crime of rebellion during an investigation opened regarding the crimes of the Franco regime by judge Baltasar Garzón. It has become clear that the current penal code is above pre-constitutional criminal laws. However Lamela has consciously decided to go against the jurisprudence of the judicial body to which she belongs.

http://catalanmonitor.com/2017/11/0...l-code-to-judge-the-government-for-rebellion/

 

[larus]

This article is interesting, sounds like solid grounds for appeal.



http://catalanmonitor.com/2017/11/0...l-code-to-judge-the-government-for-rebellion/

It really is a mess there at the moment. The Catalan Parliament for declaring independence and the Spanish government for their complete incompetence in the handling of the affair. They should have listened to genuine concerns and then this would never have got this far.

 

[BensGrandad]

Must say it doesnt really affect me as I only ever go to Costa Del Sol or Blanca and buy very little that comes from Spain possibly some fruit and veg so not sure how it will affect the availability or price of that.