[Politics] Capitalism - for better? Or worse?

[beorhthelm]

There has not been another system used in a global scale to compare it with. How do we now these reductions are faster and will stay lowest with this system? You don't, you are making a wild guess.

fair comment that another system has not be used globally to compare. perhaps because others do not scale? it certainly not a wild guess to assume others would lead to poorer outcomes, as we have observed those countries that tried alternatives end up poorer than their peers, reject the alternatives and embrace capitalism and market economics. only counter example is probably Cuba, seems to have done better than Caribbean/Central American nations, if living is 1950's time warp is acceptable.

Fact is that Capitalism requires consumerism BUT the planet cannot sustain the present consumption let alone an ever increasing population. Something has to give and I don't think it will be humanity. Fast forward 20/30 years I think nature will have the final say. Humanity either learns to live within it's means and stop consuming and reduce or nature will reduce humans.

not a "fact" so on shaky ground. consumerism needs consumption, capitialism is concerned with whole owns and directs the companies that supply the consumption. consumerism advocates we eat more and varied pies and coffee, capitialism advocates private own factories will make better (and cheaper) pie factories and coffee chains. its up to us if we want to eat more pie and drink more coffee.

i see similar misrepresentation in other complaints of capitalism, an image of the >19th centrury robber baron in industry or agriculture, which is out touch with the reality of most business. poor managment exists in all economic/political systems, reality is these days poor employers, poor products, do poorer in the free market. that old image is really of the feudal and mercantilist systems, which maintain absolute economic power within small protectionist groups.

 

[BLOCK F]

RIGHT! That is it then, give up. We might as well all just kill ourselves.

Well, we are back to Private Frazer then!
He was right.
I suspect you are too young to know what I am referring to; and no, I am trying not to be patronising.

 

[beorhthelm]

That is true, but those countries that tried other systems tended to be isolated by other countries. I wonder how they would do if they were not isolated by others as much.

Russia and China were not isolated. Vietnam and North Korea positively backed by China. Eastern europe formed their own collective, backed by Russia and imploded.

 

[BLOCK F]

Blimey, what defeatism.
Never underestimate man's ingenuity and technological advances to overcome adversity. Humans have only been on this planet for a very short time and have come a hell of a long way.......even in the last few hundred years.
Life will go on and will no doubt be different to what we know now, but isn't that always the case?
Whatever happens, I am not convinced that Plooks's faith in a non capitalistic way of life will be the answer. In all socialist/communist systems there lurks the 'elite' whose excesses and privileges would put any capitalistic regimes to shame , for their sheer modesty!
Anyway Plooks, let us assume you were the ruler of the world, what kind of system would you implement?

 

[Sirnormangall]

Perhaps what you don't understand is that there are quite a substantial number of 'normal people' in Scotland,

That 'power' has been grabbed by those who are basically extremists whose motives are more than questionable is worrying !

Yes I understand that. I have many Scottish friends and it’s the same scenario in most countries: 5% of the population are leaders and 95% are followers and the former take advantage of the latter.

 

[dingodan]

A completely new way has to be found. Its not capitalism or communism or democratic socialism. I think its about living in harmony with nature, not taking more than it can provide and producing goods that don't have a negative impact. Its all about taking no more than the planet can give. It requires a completely new mind set to the one we have now. For that to happen though humanity has to learn a lesson and that's going to have to happen so the populations move away from materialism.

Again, I ask you. How do you incentivize a farmer to farm, or a plumber to plumb, if not with a free marketplace? You wouldn't want to try to force people to do these things would you. They aren't going to do them out of kindness, as nice as that might be.

I'm all for a less materialist society, but that isn't going to come about because a new system has been installed where nobody is "allowed" to be materialistic. Not unless you want to install some kind of tyranny. I'm not particularly materialistic, but you and I can't force our views on other people. If you look at peoples attitudes towards things like plastic, they are changing.

As a species we've only really understood our impact on the planet for about 60 years, which isn't long at all. Give us a chance. & things are changing rapidly, for the better.

There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic.

There isn't an ethical alternative to free markets and capitalism. But remember, it's those things that drive innovation. Supply and demand. People want healthier food, they want cleaner cars, they want to live smarter and more environmentally, and those demands will be met in the end. Not by a benevolent dictator, but by good, smart, people. People driven in large part by self interest, trying to satisfy a demand and in turn provide for themselves and their families.

 

[Seagull]

View attachment 107562

This graph shows us why endless growth on a finite planet is not possible. We currently need on average the resources of 1.7 earths to live as we do. The current market system does not factor in a variety of costs from eco-system & species loss to pollution melting ice sheets & the poverty of those who have no choice but to serve the machine. Those costs are conveniently suffered elsewhere outside the value chain, they are "externalised", enabling the fiction of profit.

If humans are to avoid accelerating our own extinction and that of much of the natural world, we have to act to change the way we live. It is happening, but too slowly. There is technical innovation but not enough. We need a change of mindset that sees us as part of the world not its master. We need to move from extractive and exploitative to communal and thoughtful.

I think it might need disaster to provide the appropriate impetus, but I hope for better.

 

[A mex eyecan]

I wonder if you got the two sides working together, would they manage to come up with a better system?

I don't really see how the left V right, Blue V Red paradigm gives us the best outcomes. It appears to serve the blues and the reds pretty well but not really sure who else.

well getting the two sides together, red and blue could ultimately lead to a glorious purple patch in world economic history....

 

[stewart_weir]

Again, I ask you. How do you incentivize a farmer to farm, or a plumber to plumb, if not with a free marketplace? You wouldn't want to try to force people to do these things would you. They aren't going to do them out of kindness, as nice as that might be.

I'm all for a less materialist society, but that isn't going to come about because a new system has been installed where nobody is "allowed" to be materialistic. Not unless you want to install some kind of tyranny. I'm not particularly materialistic, but you and I can't force our views on other people. If you look at peoples attitudes towards things like plastic, they are changing.

As a species we've only really understood our impact on the planet for about 60 years, which isn't long at all. Give us a chance. & things are changing rapidly, for the better.

There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic.

There isn't an ethical alternative to free markets and capitalism. But remember, it's those things that drive innovation. Supply and demand. People want healthier food, they want cleaner cars, they want to live smarter and more environmentally, and those demands will be met in the end. Not by a benevolent dictator, but by good, smart, people. People driven in large part by self interest, trying to satisfy a demand and in turn provide for themselves and their families.

How do you incentivise? No idea how its going to happen today but Im sure climate change, mass migrations, starvation will concentrate the minds in future decades. Its going to be a few generations of the young growing up in a world created by us that will change the attitudes of today. As a species we must learn to live within what the planet can offer plus look after all of nature. Ironically the planet could happily live without us but not without a bee or plankton. There is always an alternative to capitalism or communism and even the use of money. Its all about attitude and the will to adapt. I can't help but think that as much as we think we live in civilised societies we are anything but.

 

[BLOCK F]

Come on you doomsters, stop predicting catastrophe, which you are good at, and tell us what you would do to change the world for one that will thrive for ever and a day..........well, quite a long time anyway.
No more waffle and platitudes, but concrete practical proposals.