[Football] Can England finally knockout a BIG team on foreign soil?

[Brovion]

...

Hard to say if any other manager would have done better than Southgate so far, but no one has done better than him in 5 decades thats just counting. All managers have their strengths and weaknesses, Southgate has created a togetherness in the players where others like Taylor, McClaren, Copello and Hodgson failed.

Oh they do. None of us defending Southgate on this thread would ever EVER say he was the perfect international manager. He has several glaring weaknesses, the fact he is often too negative and often too easily out-thought being, imo, the two main ones. But then hey, if Pascal Gross had pace ...

However as an overall package it is quite obvious that his good points outweigh his bad. He's also proved conclusively that international management and club management are two completely different jobs, and he suits the requirements to a 'T', which he definitely didn't at club level.

Slightly contentiously perhaps but for the sake or argument I'd probably (probably) even say that overall he's the best manager we've ever had. Yes Ramsey has won our only trophy, yes Sir Bobby did well, but they also had their failures.

 

[Jim D]

Germany were ranked 12th in 2020 though.

What were West Germany ranked in 1966?

 

[goldstone]

I'm concerned by our defensive frailties. A team like France would have been two up in the first 20 mins if we were playing them rather than Senegal. We looked very very shaky.

 

[peterward]

You mean we only get knocked out by the best teams?

f***ing Southgate. I always said he was shit.

It would of been so much better if Wales had knocked us out.

The flipside of the argument is we haven't actually beaten/shocked anyone we were under dogs against.

WC18 we beat all the teams who on paper we'd be expected to beat. Panama, Tunisia (just) and Against the 50/50 in croatia we lost as we did twice to favourites Belgium.

Euros at Wembley (home games) we beat a less good Croatia than 2018, a German team in transition and miles from former glories and a home win against Denmark all of which we would've been slight favourites to win at Wembley.

Against Italy we lost.

Now this WC and again we won all games we were favourites too and drew another and now again the real acid test is France. A game we will be under dog and where historically weve met our waterloo.

We haven't beaten anyone yet in years in KO tournament that we weren't expected to. Weve always fallen against teams who were favourites. France v England today is maybe 55/45 or closer still, but to lose now isn't a failure as such but also cannot be deemed a successful WC imho. Its an entirely expected one. Beating France whatever happens next would be a successful WC and progress. (Just ask Morocco).

 

[Bodian]

3 years at Boro and he achieved nothing , with England we are doing well the only difference i can see is the squads he had at his disposal , hence it must be the players .
It`s only my opinion but it is obvious that a better squad will achieve more , with a poorer squad at Boro he couldn`t make a difference , but with the best England has to offer he is getting results . It seems inarguable that the players are the difference .

The point is though - all England managers have had 'the best England has to offer'. But he is 'getting results' more consistently, and better than most previous England managers.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The flipside of the argument is we haven't actually beaten/shocked anyone we were under dogs against.

WC18 we beat all the teams who on paper we'd be expected to beat. Panama, Tunisia (just) and Against the 50/50 in croatia we lost as we did twice to favourites Belgium.

Euros at Wembley (home games) we beat a less good Croatia than 2018, a German team in transition and miles from former glories and a home win against Denmark all of which we would've been slight favourites to win at Wembley.

Against Italy we lost.

Now this WC and again we won all games we were favourites too and drew another and now again the real acid test is France. A game we will be under dog and where historically weve met our waterloo.

We haven't beaten anyone yet in years in KO tournament that we weren't expected to. Weve always fallen against teams who were favourites. France v England today is maybe 55/45 or closer still, but to lose now isn't a failure as such but also cannot be deemed a successful WC imho. Its an entirely expected one. Beating France whatever happens next would be a successful WC and progress. (Just ask Morocco).

OK, yes. We will probably lose to France because they are better than us.

Seems fair enough to me.

 

[Napper]

I've noticed alot of the knockers have been spouting alot about our tactics for the match. Prepping it up that if we go 5 at back we will lose.

All lining up their agendas

In Southgate we trust

 

[Swansman]

I find it interesting how quickly the narrative around Southgate has changed.

A month ago I was basically the only one arguing that he would absolutely land a PL job rather soon if he was sacked by England after the tournament. All the England threads were about how shite his selections and results were and who would replace him after the World Cup. Now after wins against Iran, Wales, Senegal and a draw against US - all decent teams but ones that England should beat 7 or 8 times out of 10 - he is suddenly seen as some kind of saint or something. The narrative changed very quickly, I have to say. Make no mistake though, England probably needs to win the World Cup or most voices now hailing him will turn against him again. Hero or zero, there seems to be no middle road.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

We can beat France, they are missing/not fully fit the spine of the team.

I fear we are focusing on what Mbappe can do to us rather than what our attackers can do to them.

Our attacking depth is the best at the World Cup.

 

[1066familyman]

I find it interesting how quickly the narrative around Southgate has changed.

A month ago I was basically the only one arguing that he would absolutely land a PL job rather soon if he was sacked by England after the tournament. All the England threads were about how shite his selections and results were and who would replace him after the World Cup. Now after wins against Iran, Wales, Senegal and a draw against US - all decent teams but ones that England should beat 7 or 8 times out of 10 - he is suddenly seen as some kind of saint or something. The narrative changed very quickly, I have to say. Make no mistake though, England probably needs to win the World Cup or most voices now hailing him will turn against him again. Hero or zero, there seems to be no middle road.

I've been a consistent Southgate supporter since his appointment. I haven't changed my narrative at all.

 

[SAC]

I find it interesting how quickly the narrative around Southgate has changed.

A month ago I was basically the only one arguing that he would absolutely land a PL job rather soon if he was sacked by England after the tournament. All the England threads were about how shite his selections and results were and who would replace him after the World Cup. Now after wins against Iran, Wales, Senegal and a draw against US - all decent teams but ones that England should beat 7 or 8 times out of 10 - he is suddenly seen as some kind of saint or something. The narrative changed very quickly, I have to say. Make no mistake though, England probably needs to win the World Cup or most voices now hailing him will turn against him again. Hero or zero, there seems to be no middle road.

Not sure this is correct. There were a number of us who thought Southgate had broadly done a good job but there was a majority who thought (think?) that Southgate doesn't pick Albion players because he played for Palace 35 years ago and that we win despite him. I don't think this World Cup has changed an opinion on here yet, although a win tomorrow evening should do (but still probably wont).

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Not sure this is correct. There were a number of us who thought Southgate had broadly done a good job but there was a majority who thought (think?) that Southgate doesn't pick Albion players because he played for Palace 35 years ago and that we win despite him. I don't think this World Cup has changed an opinion on here yet, although a win tomorrow evening should do (but still probably wont).

This.

What we have at the moment is a thread where people are being relatively positive about him. Those same people have been saying the same things for a while they're just usually drowned out by the naysayers. Those guys (the naysayers)will be back in full force if/when we get knocked out.

 

[nicko31]

The flipside of the argument is we haven't actually beaten/shocked anyone we were under dogs against.

WC18 we beat all the teams who on paper we'd be expected to beat. Panama, Tunisia (just) and Against the 50/50 in croatia we lost as we did twice to favourites Belgium.

Euros at Wembley (home games) we beat a less good Croatia than 2018, a German team in transition and miles from former glories and a home win against Denmark all of which we would've been slight favourites to win at Wembley.

Against Italy we lost.

Now this WC and again we won all games we were favourites too and drew another and now again the real acid test is France. A game we will be under dog and where historically weve met our waterloo.

We haven't beaten anyone yet in years in KO tournament that we weren't expected to. Weve always fallen against teams who were favourites. France v England today is maybe 55/45 or closer still, but to lose now isn't a failure as such but also cannot be deemed a successful WC imho. It’s an entirely expected one. Beating France whatever happens next would be a successful WC and progress. (Just ask Morocco).

Knocking out any team as the underdog is the real litmus test in tournaments. It never happens

 

[Poojah]

Knocking out any team as the underdog is the real litmus test in tournaments. It never happens

It’s happened quite frequently in this tournament; Argentina, Germany, Belgium, Brazil, Spain, Portugal and even Brazil have all lost to relative lesser lights. Speaking anecdotally, it must be up there as the World Cup with the most seismic upsets.

Regardless, 5th ranked England beating 4th ranked France would barely register on the shock richter scale. There’s a somewhat understandable inferiority complex amongst England fans given the way we’ve performed on the big stage in most of our lifetimes, but I do believe things are different right now.

France have an undeniable threat in Kylian Mbappè, but any blend of Kane, Foden, Saka, Rashford, Sterling and Grealish, and Sterling - all of whom have scored goals at this World Cup. To that end, Mbappé may be the tournament’s top goalscorer with 5, but England are the top goal scorers full stop with 12, contributed by 8 different players, all from open play.

Too much talk of “how do England stop Mbappè?”. How do they stop us!?

France are several missing key players including Benzema, Pogba and Kante to name just three. They will almost certainly score, but they will be the most open of our opponents so far. We have the firepower to hurt them and hurt them badly.

Of course we can beat France. Southgate has made the past irrelevant in the minds of the players, it’s just the fans now that need to follow suit.

We will win on Saturday night. Mark my words.

 

[Bodian]

I see Croatia are in the semi-finals of the World Cup.

So - not too bad a team to have lost to last time out, 2nd - and this time in the top four again.

 

[BN41Albion]

One thing that's rarely talked about with Southgate is how influential he was with the youth set up - many of the players now in his first team squad. That's huge. He also played a big part in ensuring that our youth teams played more games together and built a sense of an England 'family' in the u21 team and general youth set up. Big part of the reason we don't see club cliques anymore with those players who have now come through - a big problem in previous England squads as we all know.

Behind the scenes Southgate has had a huge influence on the England set up and recent success of our youth teams - he deserves credit for that alone, let alone what he's now achieving with players who came through the youth set up he played a huge part in overhauling.

 

[Icy Gull]

I live in hope that we will not go all CH and worry more about conceding than scoring and hope to beat France with a breakaway. If we do it will be hailed as a masterclass in tactics but if we don‘t and come out in fear and shaking like a shitting dog and get well beaten he will get the brickbats he deserves

Let’s just take the game to them and even if it ends in more glorious failure please can we at least play without fear.

 

[Surf's Up]

The final score will be 3-2

 

[DataPoint]

We can beat France, they are missing/not fully fit the spine of the team.

I fear we are focusing on what Mbappe can do to us rather than what our attackers can do to them.

Our attacking depth is the best at the World Cup.

No idea what the result will be. However I do know that during this competition England has overtaken France in the FIFA world rankings and are only Argentina left in the competition are ranked above England. So - objectively England have an excellent chance of winning the whole thing!

FIFA national team ranking - LIVE

FIFA football ranking calculator - LIVE - Ranks/points are updated daily.

football-ranking.com

 

[Bodian]

No idea what the result will be. However I do know that during this competition England has overtaken France in the FIFA world rankings and are only Argentina left in the competition are ranked above England. So - objectively England have an excellent chance of winning the whole thing!

FIFA national team ranking - LIVE

FIFA football ranking calculator - LIVE - Ranks/points are updated daily.

football-ranking.com

I would hazard a guess that if we win tonight, we'd also go above Belgium?