Cameron comes of age

[Southover Street Seagull]

You think you've got problems. I deeply distrust "Call me Dave", I detest all the moralising by the Tories but cannot but vote for them as they are my least worst option. I've done that every time since I was 18 except when I genuinely thought John Major was different in 92 and he let me down seeing as he's an adulterous hypocrite whlst spouting back to basics bollocks.

There are some really good Tories that I admire but the one-nation Toryism I want died with Iain MacLeod. If there was a genuinely non-socialist, libertarian alternative I might actually feel represented.

Buzzer for me there isn't even a socialist alternative anymore! But I would possibly vote for a libertarian party.
Unfortunately we are stuck with two parties who don't want PR as it suits them not to have it. If we were all honest with ourselves there isn't a great void between New Labour and the Conservative Party anymore. Our politics in the UK now are starting to resemble the US with the limited choice in policy difference of the two main parties.

 

[dougdeep]

Why not vote for the best candidate? Party politics should be banned.

 

[Buzzer]

Buzzer for me there isn't even a socialist alternative anymore! But I would possibly vote for a libertarian party.
Unfortunately we are stuck with two parties who don't want PR as it suits them not to have it. If we were all honest with ourselves there isn't a great void between New Labour and the Conservative Party anymore. Our politics in the UK now are starting to resemble the US with the limited choice in policy difference of the two main parties.

Agree. Interestingly (and depressingly) Brown also seems to have succumbed to the cult of personality. He really could have made something of the fact that he wasn't all glitzy, that he was of substance and if he was dour then so what? He could say he was reclaiming the gravitas that the role of PM ought to have. As it is he bottled it and instead started spin and photo opportunities. He is always going to lose against Cameron if it comes down to a beauty parade and I was expecting better from him.

I would never vote for UKIP because as far as I can see it's just the BNP down south, the Lib Dems are a big government party and Labour have been a disaster for democracy imho.

The problem isn't all with the parties though. A big part of the blame lies with the media (esp. the tabloids) and with us, the electorate. We live in a victim culture where everybody knows their rights but no-one seems aware of their social responsibilities. Got a problem? Don't worry - it's not your problem, it's society, it's your upbringing. You can sue someone for it. You're encouraged to live beyond your means.

*sigh* rant over

 

[Buzzer]

An honest & interesting response. One of the characteristics of both the Thatcher era and Major’s “back to basics” bullshit other than their rampant hypocrisy (Cecil Parkinson as the original Baby Father for starters) was their overt authoritarianism. If Labour were anywhere near the principles they had 100 years ago, they would still have my vote. As it is the only thing that would make me vote for them would me to stop the Tories (whom I share Nye Bevan’s opinion of) ever getting in.

On the basis of your other posts on here you seem to be a social liberal, perhaps we both need a new parties?

But which party? I can't see any rainbow alliance come to rescue us from this malaise.

 

[Dandyman]

But which party? I can't see any rainbow alliance come to rescue us from this malaise.

Agree, part of the creeping Americanisation of our country IMO. To be honest I see New Labour as the 21st century equivalent of the19th century Liberals.

I need a new LRC, you need a new SuperMac. Probably not much hope for either of us.

 

[London Calling]

An honest & interesting response. One of the characteristics of both the Thatcher era and Major’s “back to basics” bullshit other than their rampant hypocrisy (Cecil Parkinson as the original Baby Father for starters) was their overt authoritarianism. If Labour were anywhere near the principles they had 100 years ago, they would still have my vote. As it is the only thing that would make me vote for them would me to stop the Tories (whom I share Nye Bevan’s opinion of) ever getting in.

On the basis of your other posts on here you seem to be a social liberal, perhaps we both need a new parties?

Seems to bit off a love in going on here, I actually forsee, another Labour victory. To take us to 2013, we will then have PR. Based upon the fact that 40% of the country is conservative and 60% isn't.

Brown will know that the core of democratic liberal/ welfare would have been established and not to be undone by electorate under PR.

WE will then again get politicians that need our vote, will listen and act for us.

We will then see the rise of new parties to represent us all.

In the last Dannish elections, there was over 16 parties and above 90% turn out the largest in a free election system in the world. It is also PR, where people believe their vote matters and is not wasted.

Role on PR.

 

[mona]

A really crazy notion here, but bear with me....it might just be, that when it comes to casting a vote on who should run the country, who should be in charge of defending these shores, who might be best placed to formulate the policies on tax, education, health, transport, EU, crime, immigration...that Gareth might pick the party who he thinks has the best manifesto (madness, I know) rather than which party had the most mps sign a commons motion on his football stadium.

Barmy isn't it?

mmmm The serious point is that the Tories and LibDems in Sussex demonstrated by their opposition to Falmer their class-ridden mind set. I certainly don't think this attitude is mirrored by their parties nationally. However, Gareth presumably votes in Sussex which is why such enthusiasm is surprising.
I could possibly see myself voting Tory where I live but I sure as hell couldn't vote for the pompous Bottomley or "Wardrobe" Soames.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Seems to bit off a love in going on here, I actually forsee, another Labour victory. To take us to 2013, we will then have PR. Based upon the fact that 40% of the country is conservative and 60% isn't.

Brown will know that the core of democratic liberal/ welfare would have been established and not to be undone by electorate under PR.

WE will then again get politicians that need our vote, will listen and act for us.

We will then see the rise of new parties to represent us all.

In the last Dannish elections, there was over 16 parties and above 90% turn out the largest in a free election system in the world. It is also PR, where people believe their vote matters and is not wasted.

Role on PR.

I agree PR is the future, perhaps we should adpot the German system rather than the Italian one though, from memory Germany seems to have a more slighly stable Government than Italy.
I would also make it law for everyone to vote but include on the voting slip the category of " None Of The Above". That way if you are so fed up by the current political climate or the candidates offer you nothing, you can still vote but also register your lack of faith in the system too.

 

[Man of Harveys]

I agree PR is the future, perhaps we should adpot the German system rather than the Italian one though, from memory Germany seems to have a more slighly stable Government than Italy.

Well, it does, but as with all such systems, it does so by over-representing and over-enabling of the third-biggest party, which often holds the power to make or break a government. Hence the fact that the FDP's Hans-Dietrich Genscher (a decent enough cove) wangled for himself to to be foreign secretary - always by far the best job in government - for something like 20 years. No wonder the LibDems like the idea of it so much.

 

[Simster]

Well, it does, but as with all such systems, it does so by over-representing and over-enabling of the third-biggest party, which often holds the power to make or break a government. Hence the fact that the FDP's Hans-Dietrich Genscher (a decent enough cove) wangled for himself to to be foreign secretary - always by far the best job in government - for something like 20 years. No wonder the LibDems like the idea of it so much.

It seems a small price to pay, if you consider that the alternative is two extremes whose policies affectively alienate a huge proportion of the electorate.

Lets face it - Thatcher and Blair both led governments for well over a decade with the backing of barely 40% of the vote.

 

[Man of Harveys]

It seems a small price to pay, if you consider that the alternative is two extremes whose policies affectively alienate a huge proportion of the electorate.

Lets face it - Thatcher and Blair both led governments for well over a decade with the backing of barely 40% of the vote.

...which is, of course, far more democratic than a small party with 10-12% of the vote holding the balance of power in deciding what government you get - hence the LibDems lovin' the thought of that. And that's before you mention the fact that extremists - as has happened in Italy and Israel, for example, can gain influence in government in PR systems that don't have the 5% representation clause they have in Germany (you have to get at least 5% of the overall vote in order to be represented in the legislature: it's to keep nutters out, basically). That's not great either.

 

[NMH]

One thing to be careful of is the media influence. They can sway voter point of view, and mount an offensive against a candidate because of political affiliations and sympathies, and that's a power I see as both pervasive and undesirable.

If, say, the American Government, paid large amounts of money to media magnates to sway public opinion against anyone they saw as 'not their poodle', then that would corrupt our system (like theirs already is).

It sounds far-fetched, but international espionage is tangible, and a factor in modern politics. Let's face it, there have been countries where their governments have been deposed by the feral methods of war and invasion (Noriega, Hussein), and more sublime methods wouldn't be so far-fetched if they hadn't already been happening in our time! (the yanks would have just taken Cuba as another 'state', if the Russians weren't cocking an eagle-eye over the little island nation).

Bush wanted to intimidate the French and Germans after their refusal to back the invasion of Iraq, but seeing as the EEC is basically a shared control of both those countries, and the Euro is strong against the the US dollar (and Saddam was getting ready to base HIS economy on it!) he ended up having to apologise for trying it on.

Far fetched it might seem, but truth is often stranger than fiction.

You always have to be careful what you read and hear - but even more careful about what you believe.

 

[Simster]

...which is, of course, far more democratic than a small party with 10-12% of the vote holding the balance of power in deciding what government you get - hence the LibDems lovin' the thought of that. And that's before you mention the fact that extremists - as has happened in Italy and Israel, for example, can gain influence in government in PR systems that don't have the 5% representation clause they have in Germany (you have to get at least 5% of the overall vote in order to be represented in the legislature: it's to keep nutters out, basically). That's not great either.

Why is it far more democratic?

On the one hand you have a party holding 38% of the vote and able to do whatever they like

On the other hand, a government is formed between a major party and a minor partner where the minor partner obtains certain concessions. Why is that less democratic? Once a government is formed, there is no "balance of power". You make it sound like the minor party is able to say "do this or we'll join the other lot" on every single policy decision, which is laughable. A government is formed *after* the initial bartering, and then they get on with the job. In Germany a liberal holds the foreign minister post. He's probably the most senior figure in the minor party, so how is that a problem?

 

[Barnet Seagull]

Buzzer for me there isn't even a socialist alternative anymore! But I would possibly vote for a libertarian party.
Unfortunately we are stuck with two parties who don't want PR as it suits them not to have it. If we were all honest with ourselves there isn't a great void between New Labour and the Conservative Party anymore. Our politics in the UK now are starting to resemble the US with the limited choice in policy difference of the two main parties.

The problem with liberty is you have to have faith in people to act in the interests of the majority.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

he may be young, he may be green, he may be 'down with the kids'.

he's still a f***ing tory.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

I am dissapointed I missed it, it appears Cameron absolutely battered Brown today.

Brown's bruising battle
Prime minister's questions sketch
By Nick Assinder
Political correspondent, BBC News website


Gordon Brown will hope that is the worst and most bruising question time session he will ever have to suffer.


Mr Cameron challenged Brown to call election
David Cameron, on the other hand, now has to consider how on earth he can possibly follow his performance without resorting to four letter words or throwing bits of furniture across the chamber.

It wasn't so much that Mr Cameron wiped the floor with the prime minister - it fell a little short of that and the great clunking fist landed some pretty effective blows.

But this first question time clash of the new parliamentary season was without doubt the most bitter, personal and riveting since Mr Brown became prime minister - and one of the most high octane for many, many months.

In other words, it was engrossing, entertaining and just a little bit scary - was somebody about to get hurt?

Well, yes. The prime minister was. He knew what was coming, but that probably didn't help any more than knowing of the necessity for extensive root canal work lessens the pain when the dentist has his hand down your throat.

Make way

So, he probably guessed he was about to be branded untrustworthy, a bottler, a phoney and a policy thief.

He put his head down and allowed many of the taunts, even insults, to bounce off.


Mr Brown landed a few blows
But Mr Cameron had some genuinely stinging remarks in his arsenal.

"I tell you what, get some courage, find some bottle, get into your car, go down to Buckingham Palace and call that election," he demanded.

Then, in an echo of his famous taunt to Tony Blair that "you were the future once", he delivered the killer.

"How long are we going to have to wait until the past makes way for the future?"

Torn to shreds

The Tory benches were, by this point, in some sort of ecstatic blue heaven - perhaps St John's Ambulance crews should have been placed on standby for those overcome by it all.

Labour MPs were doing their best to match the jeers and cheers and straightforward shrieking but, like the prime minister, they really knew they just had to take it all.

Their man gave them some reasons to cheer - the Tories were a policy shambles and Mr Cameron had been forced to reveal his manifesto which would now be torn to shreds (at least the bits that hadn't been stolen, presumably)

But their greatest relief came when it was all over.

They undoubtedly reassured themselves with the hope that Mr Cameron has now fired all his missiles and will not be able to manage any repeat performances like this.

After all, his early promise against Tony Blair didn't last the distance.

And then, they hope and believe, it will all fade and Gordon Brown can get his project back on course, continue his strategy of denying the Tories any square inch of the centre ground and go on to win that election - eventually.

 

[Buzzer]

That's this thread good for another 10 pages.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

US you can hear it on the BBC Five Live Listen again. I don't like to say it - but Brown dropped himself into this - and Cameron made him pay. Early days but PMQ is going to be entertaining over the next few months .......................

 

[Lokki 7]

"The Tory benches were, by this point, in some sort of ecstatic blue heaven - perhaps St John's Ambulance crews should have been placed on standby for those overcome by it all.

Labour MPs were doing their best to match the jeers and cheers and straightforward shrieking but, like the prime minister, they really knew they just had to take it all."


What a way to govern a modern, prosperous, civilised democracy. Regardless of your party leaning, there must be a more useful and efficient way to run a country in this day and age.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Couldn't agree more Lokki. Its like a f***ing kindergarten.