Burke on his way out? Update: Gone

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Having a financial mind in a recruitment capacity seems like a great idea but it NEVER suits the best managers. Can anyone seriously expect Pulis or Sherwood to accept those terms? Nah.

 

[Willy Dangle]

You're right. The club will have databases and databases full of players, their age, height, weight, position etc etc. if they want a like for like replacement they'll correlate the statistics to find a player as close to the one departing as possible. If not, they do things differently.

I'm not dismissing your point. I just have a different perspective on it. I view the budget much like salary cap space in the NFL where you spend more (wages and fee in this instance) on areas where there is a bigger need first (forwards in the summer). In the US they'd address this need and use the money left over to fill the spaces that need filling. That's what I believe happened. We then missed out on those targets (when willing to spend a bigger portion of the budget on them) and were then forced into loans.

spot on, happy christmas my fellow sufferer

 

[perseus]

You're right. The club will have databases and databases full of players, their age, height, weight, position etc etc. if they want a like for like replacement they'll correlate the statistics to find a player as close to the one departing as possible. If not, they do things differently.

I'm not dismissing your point. I just have a different perspective on it. I view the budget much like salary cap space in the NFL where you spend more (wages and fee in this instance) on areas where there is a bigger need first (forwards in the summer). In the US they'd address this need and use the money left over to fill the spaces that need filling. That's what I believe happened. We then missed out on those targets (when willing to spend a bigger portion of the budget on them) and were then forced into loans.

I don't think they do this way. I think they use their intuition and recommendations. Then they double check on the stats afterwards.

The American way may be be suited to their sports of baseball and American football.


Intuition is unreliable in my book, hence the double check afterwards and the need for a team to decide in view of the amount of money involved.

 

[Cloughie]

I don't think they do this way. I think they use their intuition and recommendations. Then they double check on the stats afterwards.

The American way may be be suited to their sports of baseball and American football.

You'd be amazed then mate. There are companies making a fortune out of providing statistical analysis for players across the world. Brighton 100% subscribe to at least one. That really isn't unusual in football either. Wenger initially found Flamini at Marseilles when he noticed that he covered an astonishing amount of ground per game from a spreadsheet. He went to watch the then teenage midfield and signed him for a pittance due to the bizarre French youth contract loophole that existed until a couple of years ago. Big Fat Sam also used it to much acclaim when at Bolton. They were signing players from all corners of the planet then.

For anyone that is interested Michael Calvin wrote an excellent book called 'The nowhere men' which covers recruitment (and has several mentions of the Albion too).

 

[8ace]

I don't think they do this way. I think they use their intuition and recommendations. Then they double check on the stats afterwards.

The American way may be be suited to their sports of baseball and American football.


Intuition is unreliable in my book, hence the double check afterwards and the need for a team to decide in view of the amount of money involved.

Agree perseus, football is not such a stats driven sport as baseball so the "Moneyball" approach to player recruitment won't reap the same results.

 

[perseus]

I don't think they do this way. I think they use their intuition and recommendations. Then they double check on the stats afterwards.

The American way may be be suited to their sports of baseball and American football.

You'd be amazed then mate. There are companies making a fortune out of providing statistical analysis for players across the world. Brighton 100% subscribe to at least one. That really isn't unusual in football either. Wenger initially found Flamini at Marseilles when he noticed that he covered an astonishing amount of ground per game from a spreadsheet. He went to watch the then teenage midfield and signed him for a pittance due to the bizarre French youth contract loophole that existed until a couple of years ago. Big Fat Sam also used it to much acclaim when at Bolton. They were signing players from all corners of the planet then.

For anyone that is interested Michael Calvin wrote an excellent book called 'The nowhere men' which covers recruitment (and has several mentions of the Albion too).

Interpretation of the statistics. I take your point. I am not sure how well it is working?



As we are looking for a Manager, one of the things I would look at is age.

Robinson: too young.
Pulis, Hughton, McDermott: too old. (all older than Dowie)
Rosler: right age.

The last four are not any good for the Albion, Pulis and Hughton play a high line and Rosler plays a pressing game.

Tim Sherwood fits the age profile, but not the tactical style, but better than the others.

PS: Bloom is 44. My bets would be on a contemporary age-wise within ten years each way maximum. Who?

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

I don't think they do this way. I think they use their intuition and recommendations. Then they double check on the stats afterwards.

The American way may be be suited to their sports of baseball and American football.


Intuition is unreliable in my book, hence the double check afterwards and the need for a team to decide in view of the amount of money involved.

There isn't one American way - it depends on the teams. The so-called* "Moneyball" approach was adopted by the Oakland Athletics in baseball because they, as a small-market team, couldn't compete with bigger spenders. It involved identifying and targeting players with particular skills that were undervalued by the bigger clubs and which could therefore be acquired more cheaply, allowing their limited budget to go further. They looked for players who had a high OBP (on-base percentage) and then went and checked them out afterwards.

The A's applied these principles to signing free agents, trading and the high school and college draft. For a while, this scientific and analytical approach gave them an advantage over less intelligently-run teams who just relied on signing the biggest names. But after a while the others caught up, the best example being the Boston Red Sox.

Of course, having succeeded in baseball with this stats-first approach to recruitment, the Fenway group thought it might work for Liverpool. The failure of most of their summer signings suggests otherwise. Because stats in football don't tell you as much as they do in baseball. If your team's on-base percentage is perfect, you WILL score runs. If your pass completion rate is 100 percent in football, you might just be passing the ball backwards and forwards between the back four ...

*They didn't call it that, though. It was the title of a book about the team, subtitled "The science of winning an unfair game", later filmed starring Brad Pitt. The book is brilliant.

 

[8ace]

There isn't one American way - it depends on the teams. The so-called* "Moneyball" approach was adopted by the Oakland Athletics in baseball because they, as a small-market team, couldn't compete with bigger spenders. It involved identifying and targeting players with particular skills that were undervalued by the bigger clubs and which could therefore be acquired more cheaply, allowing their limited budget to go further. They looked for players who had a high OBP (on-base percentage) and then went and checked them out afterwards.

The A's applied these principles to signing free agents, trading and the high school and college draft. For a while, this scientific and analytical approach gave them an advantage over less intelligently-run teams who just relied on signing the biggest names. But after a while the others caught up, the best example being the Boston Red Sox.

Of course, having succeeded in baseball with this stats-first approach to recruitment, the Fenway group thought it might work for Liverpool. The failure of most of their summer signings suggests otherwise. Because stats in football don't tell you as much as they do in baseball. If your team's on-base percentage is perfect, you WILL score runs. If your pass completion rate is 100 percent in football, you might just be passing the ball backwards and forwards between the back four ...

*They didn't call it that, though. It was the title of a book about the team, subtitled "The science of winning an unfair game", later filmed starring Brad Pitt. The book is brilliant.

The book is a good read.
Baseball is a more stats driven game than football, hitting average and slugging percentage were overvalued instead of on-base.
I said this two post's ago

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

I think the way we recruit players is sensible but the team may have been misled on certain players or taken punts that havent worked out. Regretable in the short term but doesn't mean the whole system fails.

 

[marshy68]

Faith restored in TB if true.

18 months too late

 

[Justice]

Did anyone know Ulloa was target for DB when he was at Southampton? I think hes covered his wages and some when the club signed Ulloa.

 

[Saladpack Seagull]

It has been more like shopping at charity shops.

Where'd you get your strikers from? Pound Shop! Pound Shop!

 

[spanish flair]

Did anyone know Ulloa was target for DB when he was at Southampton? I think hes covered his wages and some when the club signed Ulloa.

Can I ask how you know that to be fact?

Gus knew Ulloa in Argentina and had been chasing him for 18 months prior to signing him.

This comes up so many times when the Burke fans claim he was responsible for bringing him here, when Stephenson and Gus had set up the deal sometime before Burke arrived and his Spanish passport was the hold up.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/10158878.More_Albion_signings_could_be_on_the_way/


He (Ulloa) is a player we have been looking for for a year-and-a-half really. The only problem was that he wasn’t available because of the European passport situation, so he was never an option.

http://www.totalfootballforums.com/forums/topic/82721-brighton-sign-almeria-striker-leonardo-ulloa/
Poyet continued: "He's a typical number nine box player.

"He's good in the air, he will hold the ball up and he has good movement around the box when the ball is wide.

"He will fit in well to our identity and I am sure he will make us a stronger team."

And the Brighton boss says he has been monitoring Ulloa for some time.

"I know him from Argentina and I follow Spanish football closely so I have been aware of him for a while.

"The problem was that he was not available because he didn't have a European passport

 

[Tooting Gull]

There isn't one American way - it depends on the teams. The so-called* "Moneyball" approach was adopted by the Oakland Athletics in baseball because they, as a small-market team, couldn't compete with bigger spenders. It involved identifying and targeting players with particular skills that were undervalued by the bigger clubs and which could therefore be acquired more cheaply, allowing their limited budget to go further. They looked for players who had a high OBP (on-base percentage) and then went and checked them out afterwards.

The A's applied these principles to signing free agents, trading and the high school and college draft. For a while, this scientific and analytical approach gave them an advantage over less intelligently-run teams who just relied on signing the biggest names. But after a while the others caught up, the best example being the Boston Red Sox.

Of course, having succeeded in baseball with this stats-first approach to recruitment, the Fenway group thought it might work for Liverpool. The failure of most of their summer signings suggests otherwise. Because stats in football don't tell you as much as they do in baseball. If your team's on-base percentage is perfect, you WILL score runs. If your pass completion rate is 100 percent in football, you might just be passing the ball backwards and forwards between the back four ...

*They didn't call it that, though. It was the title of a book about the team, subtitled "The science of winning an unfair game", later filmed starring Brad Pitt. The book is brilliant.

I must finally read that.

There is also a huge degree of judgment in our football, especially about a player's ability to make the jump up leagues and actually improve.

I imagine a lot of scouts from Championship clubs looked at Andre Gray in non-league last season.

Brentford took a calculated gamble, spun the wheel and it has paid off. This can't be done through stats, although you could probably look at the records of scouts and recruitment specialists over time to see if they are any good.

Mark Warburton said on talkSPORT this morning that Gray arrived way off the pace technically and physically but has made massive improvements in both areas. So you just have to see something.

BTW I think Brentford's recruitment team should be giving seminars for everyone after last summer.

 

[Stato]

Kaz?

Hes gonna get us you know!

Kaz did get you, playing one of his most complete games for us when you lost 3-0. I'd never seen him tackle back like that and he frustrated and nullified Zaha. I remember laughing as the future star of Man Utd stropped at the ref as Kaz proved too strong and balanced for him again and again.

I found it unbelievable that Gus didn't start him in the second leg of the play offs. He had demolished Wolves a week before and proved in the previous Palace game that he had the beating of Zaha. I think it was his absence that lost us that game.

 

[Machiavelli]

There isn't one American way - it depends on the teams. The so-called* "Moneyball" approach was adopted by the Oakland Athletics in baseball because they, as a small-market team, couldn't compete with bigger spenders. It involved identifying and targeting players with particular skills that were undervalued by the bigger clubs and which could therefore be acquired more cheaply, allowing their limited budget to go further. They looked for players who had a high OBP (on-base percentage) and then went and checked them out afterwards.

The A's applied these principles to signing free agents, trading and the high school and college draft. For a while, this scientific and analytical approach gave them an advantage over less intelligently-run teams who just relied on signing the biggest names. But after a while the others caught up, the best example being the Boston Red Sox.

Of course, having succeeded in baseball with this stats-first approach to recruitment, the Fenway group thought it might work for Liverpool. The failure of most of their summer signings suggests otherwise. Because stats in football don't tell you as much as they do in baseball. If your team's on-base percentage is perfect, you WILL score runs. If your pass completion rate is 100 percent in football, you might just be passing the ball backwards and forwards between the back four ...

*They didn't call it that, though. It was the title of a book about the team, subtitled "The science of winning an unfair game", later filmed starring Brad Pitt. The book is brilliant.

Great post.

 

[Withdean11]

Did anyone know Ulloa was target for DB when he was at Southampton? I think hes covered his wages and some when the club signed Ulloa.

Would make sense I suppose as they failed to sign him.

Ulloa was a Poyet signing, no doubt.

 

[Ernest]

There EASIEST way to SUM BERK up is he was RESPONSIBLE for Lita, Obika, Agustien, Toko , O'Grady and thus is a WASTE of space. Any DECENT players SINGED in SPITE of him

 

[spanish flair]

There isn't one American way - it depends on the teams. The so-called* "Moneyball" approach was adopted by the Oakland Athletics in baseball because they, as a small-market team, couldn't compete with bigger spenders. It involved identifying and targeting players with particular skills that were undervalued by the bigger clubs and which could therefore be acquired more cheaply, allowing their limited budget to go further. They looked for players who had a high OBP (on-base percentage) and then went and checked them out afterwards.

The A's applied these principles to signing free agents, trading and the high school and college draft. For a while, this scientific and analytical approach gave them an advantage over less intelligently-run teams who just relied on signing the biggest names. But after a while the others caught up, the best example being the Boston Red Sox.

Of course, having succeeded in baseball with this stats-first approach to recruitment, the Fenway group thought it might work for Liverpool. The failure of most of their summer signings suggests otherwise. Because stats in football don't tell you as much as they do in baseball. If your team's on-base percentage is perfect, you WILL score runs. If your pass completion rate is 100 percent in football, you might just be passing the ball backwards and forwards between the back four ...

*They didn't call it that, though. It was the title of a book about the team, subtitled "The science of winning an unfair game", later filmed starring Brad Pitt. The book is brilliant.

I think someone in charge of Sunderland FC have been reading this book or similar as they have employed a new head of scouting Steven Houston, who is yet another data base man and in 2006-2009 was a scouting for the NBA Basketball scouting team. I am not sure Gus is to impressed with this move.

 

[Sheebo]

Anyone ever gone to a supporters club meeting or something and spoken to him or heard him talk?