Brussels Airport Terrorist attack

[SeagullofMalaysia]

Muslims view the Daesh similar to how Christians view the Westboro Baptist Church. However, the Daesh are much more aggresive than the "God Hates ******s" fanatic wankers, and even the more peaceful Islamic nations like Malaysia are under threat by these wankers who think their actions give them a speedy road to Heaven, when in fact blowing themselves up under the name of 'jihad' when it is in fact fake means they'll end up in Hell.

 

[pb21]

Not at all, but either you don't understand what belief means, or you don't understand what choice means. You think I choose to keep not believing, but I don't, it's not a choice.

Just like I don't choose to think I'm a human. It's what I think, and I can't change it, I have no choice.

belief
bɪˈliːf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

choice
tʃɔɪs/Submit
noun
1.
an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

If a belief is 'an acceptance that something exists or is true' you can equally make a choice of the opposing possibility, that it dosn't exist or is false.

I understand fully.

 

[Triggaaar]

I understand fully.

You clearly don't.

Do you believe you're a human? Do you believe that you're stuck in the Matrix, or do you believe you're free? And do you think you have a choice about those beliefs?

 

[pb21]

You clearly don't.

Do you believe you're a human? Do you believe that you're stuck in the Matrix, or do you believe you're free? And do you think you have a choice about those beliefs?

Interesting questions regarding the choice of belief of oneself.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/#4

Although possibly not relevant regarding the choice of belief of God/s.

 

[Triggaaar]

Interesting questions regarding the choice of belief of oneself.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/#4

Although possibly not relevant regarding the choice of belief of God/s.

It is, it's simply about what you can and can't choose to believe. I assume you believe you are not a human body wired to power cells as in the Matrix. Now try and believe you are. You can't can you, it's impossible, you'd know you're lying to yourself.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I really don't know. I have tried thinking about it a lot of the past few months since the specific ISIS threat and find it hard to come to conclusions. However I don't think normal sane people of whatever faith chose to blow them selves up killing hundreds of people. Exactly what is going on I am unsure but these people are obviously extremely angry about something, probably relativity unintelligent (at least the ones who blow themselves up, maybe not the preachers so much) and probably have some kind of psycho pathological disorder, which when all these people come together manifests itself in the ways we see.

I think that differentiating the influence of Islam in how people end up like that, and then dictating what they then do is harder still as the two are obviously interlinked. But like I say I don't know. I think someone like Erich Fromm would be able to come up with some better thoughts.

It may give us some superficial comfort to believe these people are mad or relatively stupid but the reality is somewhat different. One of the most disturbing and dangerous aspects of Islamic terrorism is how it seems to convince otherwise supposedly intelligent people.

Almost half (48.5%) of jihadis recruited in the Middle East and north Africa had a higher education of some sort, according to a 2007 analysis by Diego Gambetta that is cited in Immunising the Mind, a new paper published by the British Council; of these 44% had degrees in engineering. Among western-recruited jihadis that figure rose to 59%.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y-prey-jihadis-terrorists-engineering-mindset

I seem to remember the perpetrators of the Glasgow airport attack were doctors or graduates of some kind. The power of religion based indoctrination is apparently pretty convincing.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So we possibly wouldn't have the same speed of access as countries at the heart of the EU like France and Belgium? .... mmmmmmmm.

If it ever transpired that high security information relevant to UK national security was being seriously delayed endangering our citizens just because we didn't belong to their club then I would be astonished. But it isn't true so not bothered although I am surprised it could be suggested to scare people into voting for one side in a referendum.

Fair enough. As I said, I'm not clever enough to know but you obviously are and you've certainly persuaded one person. I was just quoting the facts regarding the way Europol currently hands out information to countries that are not full members. You appear to have persuaded yourself that the rulebook will be torn up and complete exceptions made in the case of the UK. You'd better pass on the good news to the Met - the commissioner seems to be a bit worried. Either that or he's a secret agent of Project Fear. (Oh, and in case you're tempted to say otherwise, no one is claiming, or has ever claimed, that one friendly country would not tell another if it had firm information about an impending attack - a main function of Europol is to provide huge database resources to assist member countries' crucial investigations and it is speed of access to that resource that is of concern to senior policemen. Although not you it seems.)

 

[pb21]

It may give us some superficial comfort to believe these people are mad or relatively stupid but the reality is somewhat different. One of the most disturbing and dangerous aspects of Islamic terrorism is how it seems to convince otherwise supposedly intelligent people.

Almost half (48.5%) of jihadis recruited in the Middle East and north Africa had a higher education of some sort, according to a 2007 analysis by Diego Gambetta that is cited in Immunising the Mind, a new paper published by the British Council; of these 44% had degrees in engineering. Among western-recruited jihadis that figure rose to 59%.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y-prey-jihadis-terrorists-engineering-mindset

I seem to remember the perpetrators of the Glasgow airport attack were doctors or graduates of some kind. The power of religion based indoctrination is apparently pretty convincing.

I suspect you are correct actually with regards to intelligence, or lack of, not playing much role. I find the following quote from the wiki entry on Erich Fromm pertinent. I have read 'The Fear of Freedom' once before I think I may have to again.

Fromm believed that freedom was an aspect of human nature that we either embrace or escape. He observed that embracing our freedom of will was healthy, whereas escaping freedom through the use of escape mechanisms was the root of psychological conflicts. Fromm outlined three of the most common escape mechanisms: automaton conformity, authoritarianism, and destructiveness. Automaton conformity is changing one's ideal self to conform to a perception of society's preferred type of personality, losing one's true self in the process. Automaton conformity displaces the burden of choice from self to society. Authoritarianism is giving control of oneself to another. By submitting one's freedom to someone else, this act removes the freedom of choice almost entirely. Lastly, destructiveness is any process which attempts to eliminate others or the world as a whole, all to escape freedom. Fromm said that "the destruction of the world is the last, almost desperate attempt to save myself from being crushed by it"

 

[glasfryn]

It may give us some superficial comfort to believe these people are mad or relatively stupid but the reality is somewhat different. One of the most disturbing and dangerous aspects of Islamic terrorism is how it seems to convince otherwise supposedly intelligent people.

Almost half (48.5%) of jihadis recruited in the Middle East and north Africa had a higher education of some sort, according to a 2007 analysis by Diego Gambetta that is cited in Immunising the Mind, a new paper published by the British Council; of these 44% had degrees in engineering. Among western-recruited jihadis that figure rose to 59%.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y-prey-jihadis-terrorists-engineering-mindset

I seem to remember the perpetrators of the Glasgow airport attack were doctors or graduates of some kind. The power of religion based indoctrination is apparently pretty convincing.

and had they been intelligent enough to measure the difference between the width of their flash landrover (which we paid for along with the Doctors training) and the airport entrance they would have succeeded in killing a lot of people.

 

[brightn'ove]

It is, it's simply about what you can and can't choose to believe. I assume you believe you are not a human body wired to power cells as in the Matrix. Now try and believe you are. You can't can you, it's impossible, you'd know you're lying to yourself.

A new level of pedantry, even for you.

You've managed to turn a discussion about terrorism and immigration into a debate on what you consider to be the differences between choices and beliefs.

 

[BigGully]

[/B][/I][/U]and had they been intelligent enough to measure the difference between the width of their flash landrover (which we paid for along with the Doctors training) and the airport entrance they would have succeeded in killing a lot of people.

Which begs the question, what exactly had been their level of care to others prior to feeling it appropriate to indiscriminately kill and maim others by unsuccessfully blowing themselves up ??

 

[glasfryn]

Which begs the question, what exactly had been their level of care to others prior to feeling it appropriate to indiscriminately kill and maim others by unsuccessfully blowing themselves up ??

my other half and I have just been saying and discussing exactly that

 

[Triggaaar]

A new level of pedantry, even for you.

You've managed to turn a discussion about terrorism and immigration into a debate on what you consider to be the differences between choices and beliefs.

Not at all. Someone is saying that the terrorists choose to believe in Islam and I'm simply explaining that generally isn't the case. Nothing pedantic about it at all, it's a fairly fundamental point if you want to get a better understanding as to why people commit these atrocities.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Fair enough. As I said, I'm not clever enough to know but you obviously are and you've certainly persuaded one person. I was just quoting the facts regarding the way Europol currently hands out information to countries that are not full members. You appear to have persuaded yourself that the rulebook will be torn up and complete exceptions made in the case of the UK. You'd better pass on the good news to the Met - the commissioner seems to be a bit worried. Either that or he's a secret agent of Project Fear. (Oh, and in case you're tempted to say otherwise, no one is claiming, or has ever claimed, that one friendly country would not tell another if it had firm information about an impending attack - a main function of Europol is to provide huge database resources to assist member countries' crucial investigations and it is speed of access to that resource that is of concern to senior policemen. Although not you it seems.)

I'm as much in the dark as you are obviously. But the man who chaired the cobra meetings during the 7/7 attacks overseeing the response of the Met Police, MI5,MI6 and other agencies doesn't see it as a problem nor does the retired head of MI6.

Britain is Europe’s leader in intelligence and security matters and gives much more than it gets in return. It is difficult to imagine any of the other EU members ending the relationships they already enjoy with the UK. Furthermore, counter-terrorist and counter-espionage liaison between democratic allies is driven as much by moral considerations as by political ones. If a security source in Germany learns that a terrorist attack is being planned in London, the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz, Germany’s domestic intelligence service, is certainly not going to withhold the intelligence from MI5 simply because the UK is not an EU member.

In addition, though the UK participates in various European and Brussels-based security bodies, they are of little consequence: the Club de Berne, made up of European Security Services; the Club de Madrid, made up of European Intelligence Services; Europol; and the Situation Centre in the European Commission are generally speaking little more than forums for the exchange of analysis and views.

With the exception of Europol, these bodies have no operational capacity and with 28 members of vastly varying levels of professionalism in intelligence and security, the convoy must accommodate the slowest and leakiest of the ships of state.

The larger powers cannot put their best intelligence material into such colanders. The British voice is nonetheless very influential because its intelligence and security community is, and will certainly remain, the strongest and most mature in Europe. Washington also appreciates that its closest ally enjoys this special European status at a time when the global threat from extremist terrorism remains at the top of most nations’ national security priorities.

The crucial practical business of counter-terrorism and counter-espionage is conducted, even in Europe, through bilateral and very occasionally trilateral relationships. Brussels has little or nothing to do with them, in large part due to what is known as the “Third Party Rule,” a notion that is little understood outside the intelligence fraternity but which is essential to intelligence liaison worldwide.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/brexit-would-not-damage-uk-security

Hence my skepticism. Well worth a read.

 

[symyjym]

The trouble is the home grown European ISIS fighters who went to Syria would have been teenagers at the time of the Iraq war so very easy to brainwash. Whether we like it or not that war was a key recruitment tool. Then being pro active in destabilizing Syria for ISIS to gain territory and breeding ground to train these people hasn’t helped.

Add the belief in Allah, Muhammad and Judgment Day, many Muslims are happy to die for the cause. All factors when put together are a lethal combination.

Just have to hope that the younger generation of Muslims can see it for what it is and choose not to follow in this generations footsteps. Islam is a strange creature on many levels.

 

[alfredmizen]

This absolutely nails it .
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/0...ed-in-europe-let-the-standard-response-begin/

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I'm as much in the dark as you are obviously. But the man who chaired the cobra meetings during the 7/7 attacks overseeing the response of the Met Police, MI5,MI6 and other agencies doesn't see it as a problem nor does the retired head of MI6.

Britain is Europe’s leader in intelligence and security matters and gives much more than it gets in return. It is difficult to imagine any of the other EU members ending the relationships they already enjoy with the UK. Furthermore, counter-terrorist and counter-espionage liaison between democratic allies is driven as much by moral considerations as by political ones. If a security source in Germany learns that a terrorist attack is being planned in London, the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz, Germany’s domestic intelligence service, is certainly not going to withhold the intelligence from MI5 simply because the UK is not an EU member.

In addition, though the UK participates in various European and Brussels-based security bodies, they are of little consequence: the Club de Berne, made up of European Security Services; the Club de Madrid, made up of European Intelligence Services; Europol; and the Situation Centre in the European Commission are generally speaking little more than forums for the exchange of analysis and views.

With the exception of Europol, these bodies have no operational capacity and with 28 members of vastly varying levels of professionalism in intelligence and security, the convoy must accommodate the slowest and leakiest of the ships of state.

The larger powers cannot put their best intelligence material into such colanders. The British voice is nonetheless very influential because its intelligence and security community is, and will certainly remain, the strongest and most mature in Europe. Washington also appreciates that its closest ally enjoys this special European status at a time when the global threat from extremist terrorism remains at the top of most nations’ national security priorities.

The crucial practical business of counter-terrorism and counter-espionage is conducted, even in Europe, through bilateral and very occasionally trilateral relationships. Brussels has little or nothing to do with them, in large part due to what is known as the “Third Party Rule,” a notion that is little understood outside the intelligence fraternity but which is essential to intelligence liaison worldwide.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/brexit-would-not-damage-uk-security

Hence my skepticism. Well worth a read.

If there are no problems why should the head of the Met be expressing concern? IDS can talk about huge dangers in remaining and that's fine because his point favours Brexit. The head of a committee overseeing a homegrown terrorist attack nine years ago is also fine and worth quoting because his point too is convenient to Brexit. However, the current concerns of the country's most senior serving police officer are discounted because they don't fit the Brexit narrative.

 

[BigGully]

This absolutely nails it .
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/0...ed-in-europe-let-the-standard-response-begin/

Absolutely ......

 

[JC Footy Genius]

This absolutely nails it .
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/0...ed-in-europe-let-the-standard-response-begin/

Summed it up nicely. I especially liked this bit ..

This is how it goes in Europe now. Everything barely worth saying will be said endlessly. And the only things that are worth saying won’t be said. What are those things? Among other things the fact that we are living with the consequences of an immigration and ‘integration’ fantasy which should have been abandoned years ago. Instead our governments have kept pretending that the weakening of Europe’s external borders and the erosion of its internal borders happening at the same time as one of the largest population replacement exercises in history could have no tangible effects on our continent’s future. They pretend that Britain will always be Britain, France will always be France, Sweden will always be Sweden and Belgium will always be Belgium.

But perhaps we do learn some things. Albeit silently. A decade ago, after every attack, the pundits used to point to places where mass immigration, integration and open borders were meant to have worked. After London people said ‘What can we learn from France’. After Paris they said ‘What can we learn from the Swedish model.’ Nobody cites Sweden anymore. In fact nobody looks to anyone else’s model anymore. Because all of the ‘models’ failed. So here we are – stuck with a problem our politicians have given us and to which they have no answers. Perhaps all this pointless chatter is just what people do to distract themselves before they have to face up to that fact.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

I don't know if education makes that much difference. Cherie Blair's sister Lauren Booth has converted to Islam.

And this stupid woman Karen Armstrong happily promotes it.

https://youtu.be/lahXSUkuaIA

Christians believe in Adam and Eve, many of whom would be considered educated.

If you are brought up in a religious environment the belief system becomes your identity. In Islam even entering a toilet has to be with your left foot first. It creates hundreds of daft habits like not walking on the cracks in the pavement that have to be obeyed throughout their daily life. They earn heaven credits (sawab's) for everything they do. Even when they tell people to read the Quran on facebook they earn points.

Well, the first video you posted and presumably agree with is from an educated Sunni woman. So... i'm not sure she would enter the toilet with her left foot first...

I'm a christian, and i believe adam and eve is a nice creation myth, and can be used metaphorically.

It seems to me your argument needs refinement.