Brussels Airport Terrorist attack

[Triggaaar]

I think an important question is why people decide this is the right thing to do and how they get to the point where they even consider it in the first place.

Religion, Islam or Christianity etc. aren't inherent beliefs, people chose to believe them, there maybe an inherent desire to believe but you still make the choice, religion comes second.

Not necessarily. Children don't choose to believe in Santa, they're told he exists and they believe their parents. They don't think 'shall I believe my parents or not?', they just believe them, because they're kids and kids believe what their parents say. So children born into a strictly religious family believe because they've been told god exists.

 

[Triggaaar]

Is our security at risk if we leave? I'm not clever enough to know, although speaking before the Brussels attacks Bernard Hogan-Howe (impartial presumably) warned of a bureaucratic nightmare if we had to renegotiate access yo Europe-wide databases. The facts, as I read them, is that the UK will be able to access the EU's police co-operation agency in the same way that Switzerland and Norway do, although they have to pay fees to be members and have second tier membership, seriously delaying the amount of time taken to obtain high security information.

But the EU would be wise to want access to our information, which I imagine is vast compared to that of Switzerland and Norway, so it wouldn't make sense for the EU to delay giving us information. Sadly I suppose that what makes sense can be irrelevant when it comes to EU decision making.

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

An interesting read.
http://www.politico.eu/article/mole...adicalization-suburb-brussels-gentrification/

the sad thing is I'm not actually shocked by that

three words in that article sum it all up for me

culture of denial

 

[pb21]

I think your first important question is partly answered by your second comment. Unfortunately many people don't really 'choose' to believe in a religion. They are indoctrinated from an early age and grow up in communities where rejection of their religion has numerous negative consequences. This is particularly apparent in Islam where the consequences vary from death to becoming a family/social/community outcast.

It is therefore perhaps not surprising how someone who is raised in an environment where belief in religion is almost compulsory can lose perspective on the value of evidence based independent opinion forming and universal norms of right and wrong that conflict with their beliefs. If you are constantly told your faith is the only true one, it is the last revealed word of God and supersedes all other beliefs it increases the likelihood that you can be manipulated. Someone just needs to vary the message/ line of indoctrination. The ultimate example being the suppression of our basic self preservation instinct. Life after death is going to be infinitely better than this one/suicide bombers.

Not necessarily. Children don't choose to believe in Santa, they're told he exists and they believe their parents. They don't think 'shall I believe my parents or not?', they just believe them, because they're kids and kids believe what their parents say. So children born into a strictly religious family believe because they've been told god exists.

Yes but the vast majority of Muslims grow up with parents who tell them to believe but don't blow themselves up killing hundreds of people. Why does one Muslim chose to blow himself up because he is a Muslim but the other one thinks its stupid and wrong, despite them both believing in he same God?

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes but the vast majority of Muslims grow up with parents who tell them to believe but don't blow themselves up killing hundreds of people. Why does one Muslim chose to blow himself up because he is a Muslim but the other one thinks its stupid and wrong, despite them both believing in he same God?

Well that's a different point to your first. So we've established that they didn't choose to believe in god, they just do. After some brainwashing they're then told by leaders that god wants those who don't believe to be punished, and he will reward those that martyr themselves in paradise, and they believe it. They don't choose to believe it, they just believe it.

It's scary how easy it is to brainwash people. Obviously not all Muslims are brainwashed.

 

[pb21]

Well that's a different point to your first. So we've established that they didn't choose to believe in god, they just do. After some brainwashing they're then told by leaders that god wants those who don't believe to be punished, and he will reward those that martyr themselves in paradise, and they believe it. They don't choose to believe it, they just believe it.

It's scary how easy it is to brainwash people. Obviously not all Muslims are brainwashed.

No they still choose to believe in God and they still choose to do it. Nothing was established!

But why is it possible to brainwash one Muslim but not another when they choose to believe the same thing?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yes but the vast majority of Muslims grow up with parents who tell them to believe but don't blow themselves up killing hundreds of people. Why does one Muslim chose to blow himself up because he is a Muslim but the other one thinks its stupid and wrong, despite them both believing in he same God?

The vast majority of Muslims grow up with parents who tell them Islam is the one true faith and should be followed or suffer the consequences I mentioned in my previous post. This opens up a minority to radicalisation from Imams who preach a version of Islam which it could be argued is as likely to be true as any other version.

 

[pb21]

This opens up a minority to radicalisation from Imams who preach a version of Islam which it could be argued is as likely to be true as any other version.

Yes, but why? What makes one person want to do it but not another?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yes, but why?

Stupidity, sense of grievance, boredom, belief in Islamic superiority and numerous other reasons all facilitated by belief in Islam.

Why do you think they want to kill us?

 

[brightn'ove]

It could be time to think about clearing off to a country that doesn't put up with it.

 

[Creaky]

As we both say,the point is that the initiative must come from the muslim community en masse , and of course there will be many folk from all communities who will meet them half way, so to speak.

Like this one in London at the end of last year - do you remember reading about it? - I don't

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...am-media-outlets-say-organisers-a6765976.html

 

[Triggaaar]

No they still choose to believe in God

Young children don't choose what to believe, they believe what they're told. Do you seriously want to debate that?

 

[symyjym]

Great video.

I couldn't help but notice that many of those countries that were being studied were poor and have very low levels of education, i think solving that is key to unraveling extremism.

I don't know if education makes that much difference. Cherie Blair's sister Lauren Booth has converted to Islam.

And this stupid woman Karen Armstrong happily promotes it.

https://youtu.be/lahXSUkuaIA

Christians believe in Adam and Eve, many of whom would be considered educated.

If you are brought up in a religious environment the belief system becomes your identity. In Islam even entering a toilet has to be with your left foot first. It creates hundreds of daft habits like not walking on the cracks in the pavement that have to be obeyed throughout their daily life. They earn heaven credits (sawab's) for everything they do. Even when they tell people to read the Quran on facebook they earn points.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

And on the other hand IDS and other Brexiters have made it quite clear that we will be more likely to be murdered by terrorists if we remain in the EU. You pays your money...

Is our security at risk if we leave? I'm not clever enough to know, although speaking before the Brussels attacks Bernard Hogan-Howe (impartial presumably) warned of a bureaucratic nightmare if we had to renegotiate access yo Europe-wide databases. The facts, as I read them, is that the UK will be able to access the EU's police co-operation agency in the same way that Switzerland and Norway do, although they have to pay fees to be members and have second tier membership, seriously delaying the amount of time taken to obtain high security information.

So we possibly wouldn't have the same speed of access as countries at the heart of the EU like France and Belgium? .... mmmmmmmm.

If it ever transpired that high security information relevant to UK national security was being seriously delayed endangering our citizens just because we didn't belong to their club then I would be astonished. But it isn't true so not bothered although I am surprised it could be suggested to scare people into voting for one side in a referendum.

 

[looney]

If they are doing their jobs properly they will recognise that ISIS eta al are responsible for more muslim deaths than any others. As this article suggests if we had more coverage of the other atrocities commited by ISIS it may cause more Muslims to act against them or at lease dissuade them from joining.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-gruesome-muslim-death-toll.html

Its so predictable that you jump in with a moral relatavist, belittling argument.

How does any of that make us safer? It doesn't. Are you trying to denigrate mass slaughter in Europe?

What if someone posted about Stephen Lawrence and the response was "So what, people get murdered all the time?" Its easy to make irrelevant comparisons, its not intelligent.

 

[pb21]

Young children don't choose what to believe, they believe what they're told. Do you seriously want to debate that?

No, quite obviously not, and no child would choose to blow themselves up either, nowhere did I suggest they did or do, I also didn't mention anyway elephants who want don't choose to believe in Christianity, but if you want we can debate that?

 

[Triggaaar]

No, quite obviously not, and no child would choose to blow themselves up either, nowhere did I suggest they did or do

Yes you did (talking here about believing in god, not blowing themselves up), you said "No they still choose to believe in God". They don't. As children they believe what they're told, so they believe in god. They never have an epiphany that their believe is false, so they keep believing.

I don't choose not to believe in god, I think it would be quite nice to believe, but I can't because it doesn't make sense to me. It's not a choice I make. If you said you'd give me £200k if I believed in god I might pretend I do, but it would be a lie, as I literally couldn't make myself believe, even for £200k. Likewise, those that have believed since they were a couple of years old, they don't choose.

 

[pb21]

Stupidity, sense of grievance, boredom, belief in Islamic superiority and numerous other reasons all facilitated by belief in Islam.

Why do you think they want to kill us?

I really don't know. I have tried thinking about it a lot of the past few months since the specific ISIS threat and find it hard to come to conclusions. However I don't think normal sane people of whatever faith chose to blow them selves up killing hundreds of people. Exactly what is going on I am unsure but these people are obviously extremely angry about something, probably relativity unintelligent (at least the ones who blow themselves up, maybe not the preachers so much) and probably have some kind of psycho pathological disorder, which when all these people come together manifests itself in the ways we see.

I think that differentiating the influence of Islam in how people end up like that, and then dictating what they then do is harder still as the two are obviously interlinked. But like I say I don't know. I think someone like Erich Fromm would be able to come up with some better thoughts.

 

[pb21]

Yes you did (talking here about believing in god, not blowing themselves up), you said "No they still choose to believe in God". They don't. As children they believe what they're told, so they believe in god. They never have an epiphany that their believe is false, so they keep believing.

No they keep choosing to believe, unless you think that there is no such thing as personal responsibility?

Edit: In addition they, as children, are not told to blow themselves up when they are older, but when they are they choose to.

 

[Triggaaar]

No they keep choosing to believe, unless you think that there is no such thing as personal responsibility?

Not at all, but either you don't understand what belief means, or you don't understand what choice means. You think I choose to keep not believing, but I don't, it's not a choice.

Just like I don't choose to think I'm a human. It's what I think, and I can't change it, I have no choice.