British Rail-Who wants it back

[Nibble]

The latter is usually a necessity in order to deliver the former over a sustained period of time.

There is certainly an argument for that being the case. However, this depends on the character of the profiteers. I can't see many shareholders really caring that much what the service is like, people don't buy shares to improve the service for the end user, they buy shares as an investment.

If you have someone in charge of the private rail companies that may look beyond their tenure and not just concentrate on the money they can personally make during their leadership then that could help but the evidence suggests we don't have that,

 

[Nibble]

This is interesting, excuse the large cut and paste.

Long-distance inter-city or short-distance commuter?

First, I believe that any sensible discussion of fares must be clearly divided into long distance or short distance/commuter, as the issues are totally different. It makes no more sense to discuss rail fares all in one go than to discuss 'bus fares' without saying whether you mean National Express Victoria coach station to Leeds, or the number 13 from Baker Street to Oxford Circus. Commuter/short distance fares are largely subsidized, and broadly-speaking it's a political choice between higher taxation, higher subsidy, lower fares, and lower taxation, lower subsidy and higher fares, which we Brits have tended to make lower down the tax/subsidy range and higher up the fare price range than other countries, for better or for worse. But here, I'll look at long distance fares.

The test... The results even surprised me...

I picked four fairly-similar routes: London to Sheffield 265Km, Paris to Dijon 287Km, Rome to Florence 261Km, Nuremberg to Kassel 265Km. Actually, I didn't pick the first three, a journalist who contacted me had already identified these as comparable, so I simply re-used them, no pre-selecting particularly-cheap UK routes or particularly-expensive Continental routes on my part. The fourth route was simply the first inter-city German route of about 265Km I came across flicking through the German part of the Thomas Cook European Timetable. So, nothing up my sleeve, no funny business in the choice of routes, I was doing this for my benefit as much as public consumption. I then simply used www.nationalrail.co.uk for UK prices, www.tgv-europe.com for French prices, www.trenitalia.com for Italian prices and www.bahn.de for German prices. All very simple to do.

1. Booking a month in advance...

OK, so first test. We try booking a train at midday, exactly one month ahead.


If pre-booked 1 month ahead, 12:00 train


London to Sheffield

£12.50 on the 12:03, £15 on 11:55, £19 on 12:55 & several later trains.


Paris to Dijon

€27 (£25) on the 08:53, €42 on the 15:38, €49 on the 15:58, and €36 on the 16:53.


Rome to Florence

€29 (£25) on all departures around lunchtime


Nuremburg to Kassel

€35 (£29) on all departures around lunchtime


So interestingly Britain seems to have the cheapest long distance fares in this test. True, had I picked an evening peak train around 17:00, the London-Sheffield price would have gone up to £50, down to £25 around 18:30, back to £12.50 around 20:00. But you get the picture. Update: In case you think London-Sheffield is a special case, I tried London-Manchester. £12.50. I then tried London-Leeds, £22.50. London-Cardiff £12 or £19.

2. If travelling tomorrow...

Ha, ha, ha, that was pre-booking way in advance, of course it was cheaper! What if you wanted to go tomorrow, then we'd easily have the most expensive train fares in Europe, right? I'm sorry to say I thought that might indeed be the case. But the results surprised even me:


If pre-booked for travel tomorrow, 12:00 train


London to Sheffield

£22 on the 11:55, 12:25; £41 on the 12:55.


Paris to Dijon

€84 (£70) on the 11:58
& 14:53 high-speed TGVs, but €42.80 on a slow TER train.

Rome to Florence

€43 (£36) on all departures


Nuremburg to Kassel

€73 (£61) on all departures


In the UK, you can book advance fares up till 18:59 the day before travel, and in practice often up to 23:59 (even if they say 18:59!). All the German cheapies disappear 3 days ahead, which is why the German route is now at the €73 full-price rate. Economy & Super-economy fares also seem to have dried up between Rome & Florence.

3. If travelling today...

OK, OK, but that was still pre-booking an Advance ticket wasn't it? What if you just turn up at the station and need to buy a ticket for the next train, then we're waaaaay pricier than Europe, right? Indeed, I thought we probably would be, but it's easy enough to run the test and find out. But guess what, another surprise!


For travel today, bought at the station, immediate departure, outside the peaks...


London to Sheffield

£69.50 one-way or £70.50 return on all off-peak trains


Paris to Dijon

€49 (£41) the cheapest, available on some high-speed TGVs, still €42.80 on the slow TER train.


Rome to Florence

€43 (£36) on all departures


Nuremburg to Kassel

€73 (£61) on all departures


For a purely one-way journey the UK is now more expensive. But hold your horses! For historic reasons an Off-Peak (formerly Saver) return is £1 more than a 1 way - this was inherited from BR at privatisation, and is now fossilised by Government fares regulation (it's a long story!). So a round trip would be £70.50, equivalent to just £35.25 each way, whereas all the other countries you'd pay double what you see above. So what d'ya know, if you're making a return journey the UK also seems cheapest for walk-up travel, assuming you avoid the Monday-Friday business peaks. Now, where did you read that good news in the papers?! East Midland Trains Off-peak Tickets are similar in price to West Coast's as I recall, although in fairness you might get a different answer using an East Coast route, as (again for historic reasons) East Coast has always had higher Saver/Off-Peak fares than other operators. But you get the picture!

4. If travelling today in the business peak hours...

And now for completeness and an all-round perspective of UK rail fares (because I think the whole truth is important, not just soundbites), what if you just need to wander into the airport and buy a fully-flexible ticket for the next flight, as you naturally do? Sorry, I mean wander into the station and buy a fully-flexible business ticket for the next train? Yup, you guessed it, now the UK is indisputably the most expensive, although this is only for travel in the Monday-Friday business peaks. I gather only 10-15% of travellers on a typical inter-city route buy these business-priced Anytime fares, so this is just 10-15% of the story. Always ask what the other 85-90% is! The Off-Peak fares referred to in test 3 above are likely to be bought by around 50%-55% of passengers on a typical long distance route, so are far more common.


For travel today, bought at the station, immediate departure, business peak...


London to Sheffield

£104


Paris to Dijon

€49 (£41) the cheapest, available on some high-speed TGVs, still €42.80 on the slow TER train.


Rome to Florence

€43 (£36) on all departures


Nuremburg to Kassel

€73 (£61) on all departures


Conclusion..

So the next time someone says (or you read) "Britain has the highest rail fares in Europe", you'll know this is only 15% of the story. The other 85% is that we have similar or even cheaper fares, too. The big picture is that Britain has the most commercially aggressive fares in Europe, with the highest fares designed to get maximum revenue from business travel, and some of the lowest fares designed to get more revenue by filling more seats. This is exactly what airlines have known, and been doing, for decades. But don't take my word for it, see for yourself, check some UK train fares at www.nationalrail.co.uk...

 

[symyjym]

I'll just remind you how it works - a private company's first obligation is to its shareholders, not investing in rolling stock.

Their first obligation is to uphold their contract duty or be fined or lose it. Network Rail fined more than £50m for late trains http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jul/07/network-rail-fined-50m-pounds-late-trains

With nationalisation no one is held personally responsible when there are problems because it is easy to shift the buck. There has to be an incentive and nationalisation doesn't provide this.

 

[Nibble]

So given that we are "commercially Aggressive" under a private system, it's a fair thing to say that it would be likely that if we returned to nationalisation that the daily commuters fares would, over time, become cheaper but that this would be offset by the advanced, non peak journeys becoming more expensive? Bringing us more in line with mainland Europe. That's up to political and personal views as to whether people would want that.

As an aside, making commuters fares cheaper could help the economy. These people earn money, they spend money in all areas, it would be a boon if they had more to spend I think.

 

[8ace]

Their first obligation is to uphold their contract duty or be fined or lose it. Network Rail fined more than £50m for late trains http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jul/07/network-rail-fined-50m-pounds-late-trains

With nationalisation no one is held personally responsible when there are problems because it is easy to shift the buck. There has to be an incentive and nationalisation doesn't provide this.

 

[Gwylan]

This is interesting, excuse the large cut and paste...

I don't know how old that is - I guess it was a few years ago judging by the prices - but UK fares have steadily risen above the rate of inflation for some time now. I wonder how stark the differences would be now

 

[Nibble]

I don't know how old that is - I guess it was a few years ago judging by the prices - but UK fares have steadily risen above the rate of inflation for some time now. I wonder how stark the differences would be now

I'll re-check the date...

 

[glasfryn]

What are you? Some kind of commie?

socialist
Oh and by the way a republican as well

 

[Nibble]

It's not dated but its from the site "The man in seat 61". A good site for finding cheap fares. I think the conclusion about us being the most commercially aggressive tells more than the price lists though.

 

[albionite]

They must be mid week empty trains to be that price , can never get them that cheap following Brighton away or maybe I'm looking at wrong sites.

 

[Gwylan]

They must be mid week empty trains to be that price , can never get them that cheap following Brighton away or maybe I'm looking at wrong sites.

I'm always sceptical about these too. It's like Ryanair's supposed cheap prices, they never seem to exist whenever you actually book something

 

[Nibble]

They must be mid week empty trains to be that price , can never get them that cheap following Brighton away or maybe I'm looking at wrong sites.

Yes, he points put that we follow the airline model, charge as much as you can during peak times and then get bums on seats during quieter times. Whereas other rail services spread the cost out evenly so no-one sector is penalised according to when they have to or can or can't travel.

 

[8ace]

They must be mid week empty trains to be that price , can never get them that cheap following Brighton away or maybe I'm looking at wrong sites.

I booked KGX to LDS for £13 (for Dirty L**ds away 17th Oct) the other day, they are there - but you have to be quick.

 

[Nibble]

I'm always sceptical about these too. It's like Ryanair's supposed cheap prices, they never seem to exist whenever you actually book something

To be fair, one can get some pretty great deals if you shop around and you are able to travel on specific departures. A ticket for me to Weymouth bought on the day is £67, bought a few weeks earlier is £17.

 

[Ernest]

ORR fines Network Rail, meaningless publicity stunt as both belong to the government

 

[albionite]

Yes, he points put that we follow the airline model, charge as much as you can during peak times and then get bums on seats during quieter times. Whereas other rail services spread the cost out evenly so no-one sector is penalised according to when they have to or can or can't travel.

Fair enough only problem with that, it's an unfair refelction on true costs on travelling by rail in this country unless you really can be flexible on date and time you travel.
Good for those few who want to travel at that time but infuriating for everyone else. Should be more balanced

 

[Nibble]

For me personally, Privatisation is probably better financially as I'm self employed, rarely work in London and can choose the times I travel. But it's a very unfair and inefficient system and as a whole, nationalisation would be better for our commuters and our economy.

 

[glasfryn]

I'm always sceptical about these too. It's like Ryanair's supposed cheap prices, they never seem to exist whenever you actually book something

my wife had a cheap travel pass due to her age
from Carmarthen to Brighton cost about £114
pass not valid due it being Christmas time, to Brighton was perfectly OK
but back to Wales she had to stand all the way along with a lady in her 90s, fights scuffles, pushing and shoving all the way. No rail staff on the train at all.
Private enterprise.
is that the me first private enterprise , where the young can sit with their feet up and everybody else can go **** themselves.
national coaches is the way to go at least you can get a seat and a clean toilet and get there on time

 

[Nibble]

Fair enough only problem with that, it's an unfair refelction on true costs on travelling by rail in this country unless you really can be flexible on date and time you travel.
Good for those few who want to travel at that time but infuriating for everyone else. Should be more balanced

You're absolutely right, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

[beorhthelm]

anyone believing that service was better/would be better under nationalised rail clearly doesnt remember the old slam door trains, or the constant delays of yesturyear. there was a programme on this a few months ago and other than the grainy picture, hair cuts and suits, the interviews with people from over decades were exactly the same. to many delays, cancellations, too expensive.

I think its also overlooked that the rail infrastructure have been nationalised, and the vast majority of issues are due to this and not the private train operators. and fares will only be cheaper if the tax payer subsidises them more. which makes for a very odd situation where the left wing are advocating subsidies for the above average earners commuting to work.

what the debate always fails to recognise is that, in order to invest in the rail the owner needs to raise money. in the private owned model some of this is through shareholders and they receive some back some profit. in the public owed model all of this money is obtained via government bonds, and they will receive back some profit. the difference is in one model there is an interest in reducing costs and improving efficiencies, can we guess which?