Actually, at least 7 of that German 11 have played at this WC.
Neuer, Howedes, Hummels, Boateng, Khedira and Ozil (for Germany) plus Fabian Johnson (for the USA).
Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊
Britain and our place in world football
- Thread starter Simster
- Start date
Actually, at least 7 of that German 11 have played at this WC.
Neuer, Howedes, Hummels, Boateng, Khedira and Ozil (for Germany) plus Fabian Johnson (for the USA).
Maybe he could have said "France were good but not a top eight team going into the tournament" or similar?
How many top eight sides have England ever beaten in a major tournament (bar 1966)?
Hard to work out, as we didn't have Fifa rankings until recently, but it's clearly not very many.
- Thread starter
- #123
Since I've been following football in 1982, I can think of: Germany in the Euros in the 90s, Argentina in 2002, Holland in 1996, France 1982
Just the FOUR then.
But how many times have we been beaten by top 8 sides in major tournaments in matches in 120 mins in that time (excluding PKs)?
Argentina 86 and 98, Brazil 02, Germany 10 and Holland 88
SO just the FIVE then.
Sorry Wozza, it's a shit article.
Iggle Piggle
Well-known member
- Sep 3, 2010
- 5,952
He could have but then it wouldn't have fit his agenda for the article.
If you want to put a positive spin you could say we were unbeaten in 1982 and only let in 1 goal in 5 games and beat the semi finalists and drew with the finalists. In 86 we lost to a piece of brilliance and a piece of cheating / bad refereeing. In 1990 we lost because Waddle mistook a space station for the goal. My point is that he takes every possible chance to talk down anything England has ever done and talk up the negative. He has to mention that we had 2 penalties against Cameroon (so what) and that Argentina didn't get out the group stage in 2006 ignoring the fact we qualified at their expense by beating them. There is absolutely no balance written like your wife nagging you when the bin is full.
We haven't beaten many quality teams its true. Then, the cup is set up so that the seeds miss each other till the last 8. There aren't that many to play. I can remember some great nights following England. Argentina 2006, Germany 5-1, Platt's goal against Belgium, that Cameroon game he mentions was one of the most memorable. It doesn't make us world beaters but its a happier place to be than wallowing in my own piss and shit like Hornby does. Only happy when he is miserable.
Top teams don't get chance to beat us because we get knocked out, you div.
Oh, and why are you excluding PKs?!
But this is the default view ("We're really good, we were just unlucky") which, rightly, he is challenging...
- Thread starter
- #127
Yes, I agree, my point is a load of shit. But it's a response to a similarly shit observation from Hornby. The point you are inexplicably missing, you div, is that we are always going to get knocked out eventually, unless we WIN it. What difference does it make who knocks us out in the quarter finals or whatever?Top teams don't get chance to beat us because we get knocked out, you div.
Oh, and why are you excluding PKs?!
The fact is, Hornby said we haven't beaten many top 8 sides. Well of course we haven't - we would usually expect to meet them in the last 4, last 8 or last 16. And the point he is overlooking is that there several instances where we HAVE beaten world class teams before eventually being knocked out. It's not beyond us. In 1982 we beat France but got knocked out. In 2002 we beat Argentina but got knocked out. In 1996 we beat Holland but got knocked out. In 2000 we beat Germany but got knocked out.
So we know we can do it. Hornby has just thrown his hands up and said "we hardly ever beat the world's best teams" like it's news or some piece of analysis we've all missed. Yes we know that you idiot, but we do sometimes (more often than Algeria, Chile, the US, Switzerland, Romania, Colombia, Belgium, Portugal and other 2nd tier nations) and people want answers as to why we don't do it more often.
Spain in 96? (As you're not excluding pens)
Yeah, good win. I was there. My God we were lucky...
- Thread starter
- #131
They got to the World Cup semi finals in 1982 and then won the European Championship in 1984. But I'm sure you and Hornby are right.
You stick with Hornby's bollocks, I'll go with the facts.
They got to the World Cup semi finals in 1982 and then won the European Championship in 1984. But I'm sure you and Hornby are right.
You stick with Hornby's bollocks, I'll go with the facts.
I'm not saying they were shit. I'm saying they were not a top 8 side going into the tournament. That's a fact.
Hang on - if people are NOT allowed to use 'bad luck' as a factor for England's points total at this World Cup, how come you can shrug off a good win as being down to good luck?
Are Argentina not 'counting' their 86 win because its was lucky / the result of cheating?
- Thread starter
- #134
Yes, a fact proven by their progress to the semis where they were unlucky to go out, and then 2 years later won the Euros.
I know they were in pot three but only because qualification was a mess. France's qualification group contained 1974 and 1978 World Cup runners-up Holland, 1980 European Championship finalists Belgium, eventual 1982 World Cup semi-finalists France and the Republic of Ireland who even then were no pushovers.
So yes, France WERE a top 8 side, even though you could argue it only became apparent during qualifying for the 1982 world cup.
- Thread starter
- #135
This is the point - Hornby is allowed to cherry pick results. You know, by excluding our best ever tournament results, to arrive at a meaningless "point" that we rarely beat top 8 sides.
It's just that unfortunately there are these pesky things called facts that point out that we actually DO beat them more often than many teams considered our level, just not often enough to win trophies.
I said it was a good win. It counts.
And what level do you think we're at, post-1982?
We sold our top league for the filthy lucre and now the chickens are coming home to roost. Unless we do something at both grass roots level to train our youngsters properly and something to more to ensure our talent is playing in our top leagues then we'll continue to flounder.
Nothing will change though. The World Cup will finish and the 'EPL' (said with an American twang) will start up its engines again in August - all other football will be forgotten by the media in this country and the juggernaut of greed will continue on. Players will cash in on massive salaries; prices will rise; the average supporter will get stung and the quality of English footballers will get no better. But hey, that's what you get for having 'the best league in the world'.
Nothing will change though. The World Cup will finish and the 'EPL' (said with an American twang) will start up its engines again in August - all other football will be forgotten by the media in this country and the juggernaut of greed will continue on. Players will cash in on massive salaries; prices will rise; the average supporter will get stung and the quality of English footballers will get no better. But hey, that's what you get for having 'the best league in the world'.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,263
No I haven't but I have a look at some of the England Schoolboys matches on Sky or the Under-17s and what is glaringly obvious is that the technique is poor and the emphasis is still hustle, bustle and physicality. Most of these "schoolboys" are either built like brick shithouses or look like 100 metre runners. When do we ever produce a small yet creative genius like a Modric, Giresse, Xavi, Messi, Oscar, Ardiles?
But you are looking at players who have already been in the system for a quite a number of years. The changes in how games are organised are now taking place starting at U7s upto u11s. The FA are now supporting Futsal as way to improve technique so it is likely to be 10 years before we see players coming through the 'new' system. I was at the FA Festival of Futsal last weekend in Birmingham and the ability of some of the kids on the ball is tremendous.