Britain and our place in world football

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

Oxford Dictionary definition of effort: "A vigorous or determined attempt; strenuous physical or mental exertion."

Prior to 2010 look how we were eliminated from the tournament: 2006 penalties, 202 wonder goal from Ronaldinho, 1998 penalties, 1990 penalties, 1986 wonder goal and Hand Of God from Maradona, 1982 inability to score vs Germany and Spain.

Now look at 2010 and 2014: Rob Green switches off and palms the ball in the net vs USA, English defence switch off and concede 4 vs Germany, England defence switches off at corner and give Italy free shot, English defence outnumber Uruguay 6 vs 2 yet concede, English defence switches off in final minutes to let Suarez through for winner.

Dont forget 2006 we also had 10 men thanks to Rooney being sent off and 1998 Beckham.

 

[drew]

Oxford Dictionary definition of effort: "A vigorous or determined attempt; strenuous physical or mental exertion."

Prior to 2010 look how we were eliminated from the tournament: 2006 penalties, 202 wonder goal from Ronaldinho, 1998 penalties, 1990 penalties, 1986 wonder goal and Hand Of God from Maradona, 1982 inability to score vs Germany and Spain.

Now look at 2010 and 2014: Rob Green switches off and palms the ball in the net vs USA, English defence switch off and concede 4 vs Germany, England defence switches off at corner and give Italy free shot, English defence outnumber Uruguay 6 vs 2 yet concede, English defence switches off in final minutes to let Suarez through for winner.

Talk about over simplifying things.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I'm not oversimplifying things, I believe that other countries give their kids better coaching and that this is the real reason why we're falling behind.

One by-product of having poor coaching is poor concentration and poor reading of the game, and I'm highlighting how this particular factor has really hurt us in the last two tournaments.

 

[BigGully]

I'm not oversimplifying things, I believe that other countries give their kids better coaching and that this is the real reason why we're falling behind.

One by-product of having poor coaching is poor concentration and poor reading of the game, and I'm highlighting how this particular factor has really hurt us in the last two tournaments.

Coaches are not taught specifically how the game should be played at even the higher qualifications, so to a point the coaching itself isnt the answer.

Its then how our coaches encourage, educate and forgive certain players with different attributes, especially those players that might have the attributes need to compete internationally.

To some extent our football reflects what we the fans prefer, we saw it in the Poyet era, we were fairly unforgiving when it came to the passing possession parts of our play, especially when it was delivering results.

 

[SI 4 BHA]

I'm not oversimplifying things, I believe that other countries give their kids better coaching and that this is the real reason why we're falling behind.

One by-product of having poor coaching is poor concentration and poor reading of the game, and I'm highlighting how this particular factor has really hurt us in the last two tournaments.

I agree that poor coaching can lead to poor concentration, but the problem with the England team at the WC was simply a lack of proper organisation of the defensive unit. None of our defenders seemed to have any real responsibility to defend, it was just a matter of luck if they were occasionally in the right position. We didn't defend as a unit and that was what really annoyed me. This is quite simple to achieve, Gus and Oscar both made the Albion very difficult to break down, the back six, goalie, 4 defenders and holding midfielder, all knew their roles and there was loads of communication between them to ensure no one lost concentration but apparently this was beyond the coaching skills of Roy H and his highly paid team of coaches. Most of the time watching England it seemed Roy put out 11 individuals and hoped they would get on ok, but in reality, although some players showed glimpses of promise, on the whole, it was a shambles! I honestly think that if Gus had managed the England team, we would have at least got out of the group.

 

[Man of Harveys]

Brilliant article. I hope Mellotron has read it.

Same. In fact, some sort of YouTube video showing him doing so would be almost as entertaining as that Japanese politician's meltdown.

"LIES. MORE LIES. WE WERE UNLUCKY. YET MORE LIES" etc etc.

 

[Brovion]

I disagree, I think some of these 'lesser' nations like the USA put in more physical and mental effort precisely because they are not as naturally skilful as their opposition. Look at how well the USA defended in the first 90 minutes vs Belgium, the focus they maintained, the concentration from Tim Howard to make those 15 saves.

Contrast that with how England switched off for Suarez's winner, or for Italy's first goal from the corner, or their second where failure to close down the Italians allowing them to play the ball out from their penalty area to Balotelli's head relatively unchallenged. Go back 4 years and we have the Klose goal where he leaves Upson for dead from a long punt from the keeper. Our concentration level is habitually third rate, and this IS about effort.

I don't think any of those things you've mentioned are down to physical 'effort' and indeed I'm struggling to see how you can relate them all. And I don't think the keeper making a world record number of saves speaks very highly of the 'effort' (your definition) being put in by the players in front of him, if they'd all tried a bit harder Howard wouldn't have had to do so much work.

I'm going to leave it there as we patently aren't going to agree on this.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

That Nick Hornby article is utter drivel by the way

If someone on here wrote that 'Lionel Messi wouldn't get on the bench at West Ham or Sunderland' they would be laughed off the board. Also, Anyone want to know why we've never beaten Spain in the knockout stages of the World Cup? Well, we've never played them (0-0 draw in 82 in the stupid 2nd group stage, in Spain no less). The French team he belittles (as good as Northern Ireland, yeah right) got to the semi final of the 82 World Cup and won the Euro's 2 years later containing Platini in his prime, one of the finest players of the 1980's. Lastly, John Terry, would have walked into many National teams in his prime. I can't stand him but he was sorely missed in this world cup and he makes Phil Jageilka look like the League 1 player he is. If you want to pick on shit players in the England team, there are hundreds in the queue in front of him.

Imagine having a pint with him. I'd fall asleep in it. If anyone laments where football became a middle class bores sport, this man was at the heart of it with Fever Pitch. Nice to see he is still churning out horse shit.

 

[Simster]

That Nick Hornby article is utter drivel by the way

If someone on here wrote that 'Lionel Messi wouldn't get on the bench at West Ham or Sunderland' they would be laughed off the board. Also, Anyone want to know why we've never beaten Spain in the knockout stages of the World Cup? Well, we've never played them (0-0 draw in 82 in the stupid 2nd group stage, in Spain no less). The French team he belittles (as good as Northern Ireland, yeah right) got to the semi final of the 82 World Cup and won the Euro's 2 years later containing Platini in his prime, one of the finest players of the 1980's. Lastly, John Terry, would have walked into many National teams in his prime. I can't stand him but he was sorely missed in this world cup and he makes Phil Jageilka look like the League 1 player he is. If you want to pick on shit players in the England team, there are hundreds in the queue in front of him.

Imagine having a pint with him. I'd fall asleep in it. If anyone laments where football became a middle class bores sport, this man was at the heart of it with Fever Pitch. Nice to see he is still churning out horse shit.

100% agree with the exception of the last sentence - if it was a crime to be middle class and like football, half of NSC would be in prison. However I'm amazed that someone as intelligent as Wozza pronounced such a wanky drivel as a good article, and he did it on Facebook too. It is absolute garbage.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Also, It's almost laughable how he manages to shoe horn in references to Maggie Thatcher and The Guardian. I'm no Tory but I think Nick is contracted to ensure he mentions them in everything he writes

I posted this the other day, If anyone wants to read an article which makes great use of Stats, read this about Lionel Messi.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/

 

[Wozza]

That Nick Hornby article is utter drivel by the way

If someone on here wrote that 'Lionel Messi wouldn't get on the bench at West Ham or Sunderland' they would be laughed off the board. Also, Anyone want to know why we've never beaten Spain in the knockout stages of the World Cup? Well, we've never played them (0-0 draw in 82 in the stupid 2nd group stage, in Spain no less). The French team he belittles (as good as Northern Ireland, yeah right) got to the semi final of the 82 World Cup and won the Euro's 2 years later containing Platini in his prime, one of the finest players of the 1980's. Lastly, John Terry, would have walked into many National teams in his prime. I can't stand him but he was sorely missed in this world cup and he makes Phil Jageilka look like the League 1 player he is. If you want to pick on shit players in the England team, there are hundreds in the queue in front of him.

Imagine having a pint with him. I'd fall asleep in it. If anyone laments where football became a middle class bores sport, this man was at the heart of it with Fever Pitch. Nice to see he is still churning out horse shit.

The Messi reference is clearly a joke. He says the French team of '82 were very good.

Regardless, we v rarely beat top teams in competitive international football - and that's a fact.

 

[smudge]

I think Scotland will look at the WC & think they can take great heart from the way teams like Costa Rica & Algeria performed. No "superstars", a great team spirit, good work ethic, a bright coach with tactical nous.
Croatia won a lot of praise in Brazil, but were twice beaten by Scotland in qualification.

I think England have further to fall before we smell the coffee. If Hodgson is the answer, then what is the question?
If you ask me for an alternative, then I can't think of an Englishman, so I'd have to say Martinez on a very long contract; but that will never happen.
Going back in time, the departure of Venables was a key moment in our downward spiral. The last good manager the national team had.

 

[Guy Crouchback]

Regardless, we v rarely beat top teams in competitive international football - and that's a fact.

Yeah, your team is really sh*te. You should learn from Poland: we haven't lost a single goal in the World Cup since 2006!

 

[Iggle Piggle]

100% agree with the exception of the last sentence - if it was a crime to be middle class and like football, half of NSC would be in prison. However I'm amazed that someone as intelligent as Wozza pronounced such a wanky drivel as a good article, and he did it on Facebook too. It is absolute garbage.

At the time, we needed something a bit more insightful than an interview with Tony Woodcock in Shoot asking what he ate for breakfast as well as a kicking from Milwall fans if we dared venture to the Den. Some middle ground is what we need. What next England Poems?

 

[Simster]

If Hodgson is the answer, then what is the question?

It's probably "can you think of a man who has served his time winning trophies in smaller European leagues, taken a small unfashionable club to the UEFA cup final, and who has national team experience by leading a small country with limited resources to major competitions?"

 

[Monsieur Le Plonk]

I disagree, I think some of these 'lesser' nations like the USA put in more physical and mental effort precisely because they are not as naturally skilful as their opposition. Look at how well the USA defended in the first 90 minutes vs Belgium, the focus they maintained, the concentration from Tim Howard to make those 15 saves.

Contrast that with how England switched off for Suarez's winner, or for Italy's first goal from the corner, or their second where failure to close down the Italians allowing them to play the ball out from their penalty area to Balotelli's head relatively unchallenged. Go back 4 years and we have the Klose goal where he leaves Upson for dead from a long punt from the keeper. Our concentration level is habitually third rate, and this IS about effort.

Is that bit not an oxymoron? The fact that Howard had to make 15 saves suggests that the defence was absolute pony.....
FWIW I agree with your points about concentration and effort being intrinsically linked.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

You appear to have read the words but not understood them.

The Messi reference is clearly a joke. He says the French team of '82 were very good.

Regardless, we v rarely beat top teams in competitive international football - and that's a fact.

He says the French team were good but then goes onto compare them to NI and Scotland. False praise if ever there was. More pertinent is the fact history has proved them to be a bit better than very good with one of the finest players of the 80's playing for them. We were unbeaten in that World Cup too, he doesn't mention that either.

I appreciate that the Messi line is one of Nick's oh so hilarious gags he thought up over his Skinny Latte and inbetween drags on his Marlboro Light. I also think he half believes it himself. As per the link i provided in #111, Messi is a freak of his generation.

You last point is a fact but I'd like to see a more robust argument than the one eyed stats provided here.

 

[drew]

I'm not oversimplifying things, I believe that other countries give their kids better coaching and that this is the real reason why we're falling behind.

One by-product of having poor coaching is poor concentration and poor reading of the game, and I'm highlighting how this particular factor has really hurt us in the last two tournaments.

Have you read the FA Youth review and seen the changes to youth football which is currently being phased in. Have you seen what overseas coaches actually teach compared to what coaches over here coach?

 

[smudge]

It's probably "can you think of a man who has served his time winning trophies in smaller European leagues, taken a small unfashionable club to the UEFA cup final, and who has national team experience by leading a small country with limited resources to major competitions?"

You could be right in that's the way the FA came to the decision. I wouldn't agree entirely with the media's preferred choice either, (Redknapp), even though I think we would have performed better under him.
Hodgson did his best stuff at smaller clubs & smaller countries. What disappointed me most with him at this WC was his total tactical melt-down. He wasn't helped by the lack of decent defenders, (compounded by leaving our best 2 at home, but that's a whole other debate). The midfielders he chose for the defensive side were also a huge failure. It just seemed so "let's pick these players & hope they can create what they show in the PL", only without any game plan or direction.
England were surely the biggest disappointment & laughing stock at a great WC. Can't see much change under Hodgson either.

Like I said earlier, Scotland on the other hand, seem to have a much more positive outlook for some reason; without even kicking a ball in Brazil. I would say the the same for Wales because of the Bale factor, but their manager is not up to much.

 

[drew]

You could be right in that's the way the FA came to the decision. I wouldn't agree entirely with the media's preferred choice either, (Redknapp), even though I think we would have performed better under him.
Hodgson did his best stuff at smaller clubs & smaller countries. What disappointed me most with him at this WC was his total tactical melt-down. He wasn't helped by the lack of decent defenders, (compounded by leaving our best 2 at home, but that's a whole other debate). The midfielders he chose for the defensive side were also a huge failure. It just seemed so "let's pick these players & hope they can create what they show in the PL", only without any game plan or direction.
England were surely the biggest disappointment & laughing stock at a great WC. Can't see much change under Hodgson either.

Like I said earlier, Scotland on the other hand, seem to have a much more positive outlook for some reason; without even kicking a ball in Brazil. I would say the the same for Wales because of the Bale factor, but their manager is not up to much.

Biggest Disappointment? Maybe to us but I doubt the rest of the world is that bothered. Look at Spain, reigning world champions and on the plane home before us!