[Politics] Brexit

[Lincoln Imp]

Jesus wept, I thought pretending that CPTPP membership was the same as EU membership was unbelievably stupid but today we have plumbed new depths ... NATO, UN membership virtually the same as EU membership [emoji2960]

Remainers better educated/ informed my hairy arse .....

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No one has said that NATO or UN membership is 'virtually the same as EU membership". The suggestion is that membership of international bodies (and sometimes the signing of international treaties) leads to reductions in sovereignty, all of them different and some of them quite severe.

Brexiters seem to dream of an 18th century version of untrammelled sovereignty that no longer applies. Even if it applied in the 18th century.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

It's like tuning into the muppet show every day ... all my favourite characters, all the same lines [emoji106]

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https://youtu.be/0IMWn7tA_w8
All together chaps
Regards
DF

 

[birthofanorange]

No one has said that NATO or UN membership is 'virtually the same as EU membership". The suggestion is that membership of international bodies (and sometimes the signing of international treaties) leads to reductions in sovereignty, all of them different and some of them quite severe.

Brexiters seem to dream of an 18th century version of untrammelled sovereignty that no longer applies. Even if it applied in the 18th century.

JCFG sees only what he wants to see in posts, and avoids the rest like the plague, even to the point of inventing stuff (see 'virtually the same as EU membership').

Oh, and nazi boy just posts puerile YT videos and nothing much else.

Same ol', same ol'.

 

[pastafarian]

A good description of sovereignty. Do we get a referendum on leaving the United Nations (with its pesky Refugee ruling of 1951) or NATO? Both of which mean ceding a small amount of sovereignty, but not as much as quitters like to think.

You can get a referendum on leaving NATO or the UN if you can drum up support for it. Doesn’t seem to be a popular cause tbh, its not as if these organisations have parliaments and executives similar to the EU passing laws that have primacy over domestic national law.
And that convention had no legal force in the UK until parliament decided to incorporate it into an Act of Parliament years later. Whilst most of the convention was honoured by the UK it was historically at the discretion of the Home Office and we did not agree to honour a number of the articles contained in the convention as they directly conflicted with existing UK law (which had primacy).

Both of which mean ceding a small amount of sovereignty, but not as much as quitters like to think.

Which parliamentary powers ceded to the UN and NATO are you referring to?

NATO is actually a fascinating example, especially as it arguably has a much bigger impact on sovereignty as it demands that a certain amount of GDP be spent on a specific element of Government policy, something EU membership never explicitly did. And yet you never hear the argument made by most of the Brexiters (outside the hardcore left-wing Brexiters of the George Galloway ilk) that we should leave it. It's almost like their problem isn't actually with the sovereignty aspect but something else they can't (or won't) elaborate on.

NATO doesn’t demand that though, there are spending guidelines and targets and countries make commitments, but these are not legally binding on NATO member states. National governments decide defence budgets.

Being a member of the United Nations means we have to pay Foreign Aid at 0.7 of gross national income.

No we don’t “have” to because we are members of the UN.
0.7% is a UN recommended target. We choose if we will apply it or not.
Many countries don’t. Only 5 countries including us achieved it in 2019.

View attachment 133934

We have achieved the last few years as we wrote the target into a specific Act of Parliament.
The same Act allows a spending review and because of covid we will not be able to reach the 0.7% target, aid spending will be reduced. All this can be done because we don’t “have” to spend 0.7% because we are members of the UN.

Jesus wept, I thought pretending that CPTPP membership was the same as EU membership was unbelievably stupid but today we have plumbed new depths ... NATO, UN membership virtually the same as EU membership [emoji2960]

Remainers better educated/ informed my hairy arse .....

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Indeed. What a load of WTF#ckery.
One comes out with nonsense and like lemmings a whole load follow suit.
Comparisons between the EU, NATO and the UN are just ludicrous………no wonder team remain are left floundering on the whole sovereignty issue.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Sounds like I'm alright jack. Not so much fun if you work in the UK fashion industry...

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-brexit-uk-eu-trading?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Well you did ask.
My partner works in the UK fashion industry and is feeling it particularly hard, so I am not without sympathy. I don't know your background but I was digging swimming pools aged 18-20, worked on building sites, night shift in a bakery, tree surgery, house painting, grass cutting and made fibre-glass car parts and fish ponds. When I wasn't doing that, me and my mates were getting pissed, chasing girls and setting light to any Tory sign in the lead up to elections. Listening to Neil Young and the Grateful Dead, marvelling over Hendrix and railing against the Establishment. We wanted to change the world, thought Nixon was a scumbag and thought the Common Market was a good idea. We hitch-hiked for weeks, rucksacks and guitars, slept rough, through Europe and down to Greece or N Africa. We saw a lot, learnt a lot, met many people, broadened our minds and got brilliant suntans.
That was me earlier in life. No real responsibility then. Worked hardish, played very hard. Gambled a lot ( Horses, Dogs, Casino ) Easy come, easy go but that doesn't last forever. Wife, kids, house, regular money...priority.
Never a case of...." I'm alright jack ".....Divorce came along later in life. Wiped me out. Like a single bloke again. Lost big money in a failed venture. So I am currently, late in life, trying to build myself up again and will have to work well into my 70's. There will be no retirement for me. Cashed in any investments I had to try and rebuild.
So unless you really know someone, you don't know their circumstances. Its easy to speculate but often, we get it wrong. I learnt that lesson a long time ago. Aplogies for all of that and nothing to do with Brexit but we all post away on here and make assumptions about people, we know nothing about.

 

[Randy McNob]

Indeed. What a load of WTF#ckery.
One comes out with nonsense and like lemmings a whole load follow suit.
Comparisons between the EU, NATO and the UN are just ludicrous………no wonder team remain are left floundering on the whole sovereignty issue.

Whoosh

 

[Simster]

no wonder team remain are left floundering on the whole sovereignty issue.

PMSL.

Here's me "floundering" over sovereignty:

Consider our voting system is so absurdly weighted towards the Tories (and to a lesser extent, Labour) with the result that a monkey with the right coloured rosette in the right constituency will always be elected, and in the handful of constituencies where that isn't the case, the whole voting pattern is tactical rather than by preference. There is never any hope of competent politicians being rewarded with power in this country. You only have to look at the horrific choice we had in 2019 - Boris Johnson, a lazy, incompetent and corrupt moron born with a silver spoon in his mouth, surrounded by talentless drippy clingers-on. And he beat the Labour party, because they were led by an idealistic and horribly naiive man who dresses like a primary school teacher, and surrounded himself with unpalatably left-wing yes men and women who lapped up the adoration from the handful of loyal banshees but switched off everyone else.

The result of this perfect storm is the worst, and most corrupt administration we have ever seen, and just when we faced the two biggest challenges in decades, both of which they have predictably failed to address even remotely successfully. The Brexit agreement IS a complete disaster, and it is absolutely remarkable that so many of you clapping Brexit seals can't see it. So personally, faced with that reality, I really REALLY struggle with this idea that pooled sovereignty is such a horrendous concept.

And here's you comprehensively answering and debunking all of my concerns with well-reasoned, lengthy responses:

In shock news Remainer admits to preferring national sovereign powers be ceded to the EU in a pooled sovereignty system rather than be in the hands of national elected administrations.

It is rather pointless arguing about it though.
We are worlds apart with our views on the importance of sovereign issues, we will never comprehend each others opinions on sovereignty and control issues re the EU. You in essence dont view them as important and i do.

I mean I'm not surprised you can't remember this, it was after all a whole FOUR days ago. I can't take your drivel seriously.

 

[pastafarian]

PMSL.

Here's me "floundering" over sovereignty:






And here's you comprehensively answering and debunking all of my concerns with well-reasoned, lengthy responses:







I mean I'm not surprised you can't remember this, it was after all a whole FOUR days ago. I can't take your drivel seriously.

I do remember it. You moaning about the voting system being absurdly weighted (presumably because you vote for minority parties) is utterly irrelevant.
So yes, floundering.

 

[Simster]

I do remember it. You moaning about the voting system being absurdly weighted (presumably because you vote for minority parties) is utterly irrelevant.
So yes, floundering.

Except it isn't for the reasons I outlined. I also moaned at too much media power being in the hands of a few billionaires. That isn't irrelevant either, as these 4 or 5 people are all pro-Brexit and haven't debated it even remotely even-handledly.

You are a total moron who cherry-picks the people he wants to have arguments with. When faced with difficult debate, you always run away. Pathetic.

 

[daveinplzen]

Brexit Jihadists enjoying a break here from answering questions regarding the absolute cluster**** they voted for.

 

[nicko31]

Well you did ask.
My partner works in the UK fashion industry and is feeling it particularly hard, so I am not without sympathy. I don't know your background but I was digging swimming pools aged 18-20, worked on building sites, night shift in a bakery, tree surgery, house painting, grass cutting and made fibre-glass car parts and fish ponds. When I wasn't doing that, me and my mates were getting pissed, chasing girls and setting light to any Tory sign in the lead up to elections. Listening to Neil Young and the Grateful Dead, marvelling over Hendrix and railing against the Establishment. We wanted to change the world, thought Nixon was a scumbag and thought the Common Market was a good idea. We hitch-hiked for weeks, rucksacks and guitars, slept rough, through Europe and down to Greece or N Africa. We saw a lot, learnt a lot, met many people, broadened our minds and got brilliant suntans.
That was me earlier in life. No real responsibility then. Worked hardish, played very hard. Gambled a lot ( Horses, Dogs, Casino ) Easy come, easy go but that doesn't last forever. Wife, kids, house, regular money...priority.
Never a case of...." I'm alright jack ".....Divorce came along later in life. Wiped me out. Like a single bloke again. Lost big money in a failed venture. So I am currently, late in life, trying to build myself up again and will have to work well into my 70's. There will be no retirement for me. Cashed in any investments I had to try and rebuild.
So unless you really know someone, you don't know their circumstances. Its easy to speculate but often, we get it wrong. I learnt that lesson a long time ago. Aplogies for all of that and nothing to do with Brexit but we all post away on here and make assumptions about people, we know nothing about.

Mo sounds like you have had a very varied life and seen a lot and then there the Albion. It was a bit of a throw away remark and I'm glad Brexit isn't impacting you too much personally

I've involved in an import / export business and I see a lot of pain for business right now. Exports are burdened with paperwork, struggling with rules of origin getting stuff to market, imports are severely disrupted with some major carrier suspending services to the UK from Europe completely. So I was a little fustrated when your earlier post implied thing seemed OK just because we're not seeing food shortages etc

Things will smooth out to some extent but make no mistake we've put up significant trade barriers with our largest trading partner just at the point our economy has suffer the biggest contraction for 300 years. It really is the perfect storm and the government has been cavalier in its approach, they forced through an FTA when they knew things weren't ready when the public would be happily accepted a pause for breathe...

 

[nicko31]

Except it isn't for the reasons I outlined. I also moaned at too much media power being in the hands of a few billionaires. That isn't irrelevant either, as these 4 or 5 people are all pro-Brexit and haven't debated it even remotely even-handledly.

You are a total moron who cherry-picks the people he wants to have arguments with. When faced with difficult debate, you always run away. Pathetic.

Murdoch, Rothermere, Barclay - all do not live here. They are looking after their own business interests not those of the UK, they've shaped Britain and year after year a large section of the public believes what they read..

 

[Chicken Run]

Brexit Jihadists enjoying a break here from answering questions regarding the absolute cluster**** they voted for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihadism?wprov=sfti1

 

[WATFORD zero]

We really are down to the very bottom of the Brexiteer dregs posting pathetic whataboutism in a sad attempt to avoid the reality of Brexit. I think Ppf may actually be the most capable Brexiteer left

They don't like the NI protocol, they don't like the new export rules, they don't like the shellfish rules, they want the EU to grant equivalence to the services sector. Could you imagine what it would have been like if they hadn't understood what they were voting for

 

[sydney]

Brexit Jihadists enjoying a break here from answering questions regarding the absolute cluster**** they voted for.

back with a bang David .....Jihadists ...?? really ...??

 

[A1X]

We really are down to the very bottom of the Brexiteer dregs posting pathetic whataboutism in a sad attempt to avoid the reality of Brexit. I think Ppf may actually be the most capable Brexiteer left

At least he's honest about what his problems are rather than trying to dress it up in flowery language or deflect onto other subjects to avoid discussing it.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Except it isn't for the reasons I outlined. I also moaned at too much media power being in the hands of a few billionaires. That isn't irrelevant either, as these 4 or 5 people are all pro-Brexit and haven't debated it even remotely even-handledly.

You are a total moron who cherry-picks the people he wants to have arguments with. When faced with difficult debate, you always run away. Pathetic.

Bitter man Syndrome.......
Regards
DF

 

[pastafarian]

Except it isn't for the reasons I outlined. I also moaned at too much media power being in the hands of a few billionaires. That isn't irrelevant either, as these 4 or 5 people are all pro-Brexit and haven't debated it even remotely even-handledly.

You are a total moron who cherry-picks the people he wants to have arguments with. When faced with difficult debate, you always run away. Pathetic.

It really is irrelevant. If your belief is the principle Westminster sovereign powers should remain in Westminster and not be ceded to Brussels all in the name of pooled EU sovereignty, then it is completely irrelevant if the Tories are in government or its Labour or Lib Dems or even Lord Buckethead.
You have let yourself down here, it is daft to want sovereign powers given to the EU because you view it as some sort of security blanket against an elected government that you didn’t want yourself or because your personal choice is such a minority it is never likely to be elected into power.
You have gone beyond floundering and have beached yourself.

 

[daveinplzen]

back with a bang David .....Jihadists ...?? really ...??

5th columnists...?? Really..??

 

[Simster]

Bitter man Syndrome.......
Regards
DF

Ah, the saddest, thickest moron on this site has popped his spotty simple little head above the parapet to confirm my beliefs are the right ones. If I was a Brexiter, I'd cringe whenever you posted in my defence. I wonder if the more intelligent Brexiters do exactly that?