[Politics] Brexit

[El Presidente]

The options don't really cover me - I accept, and always have, that we'll be financially poorer BUT I think what we lose financially we gain from our independence from a political organisation.

A well set out position

 

[Worthing exile]

Our economy is going to take a hammering post COVID and taxes will go up, but if we were still in EU we would also have to throw big money in the EU pot to 'help the poorer nations' making us even worse off.

 

[portlock seagull]

My twitter feed is full of remain people wondering if any Brexit people have regrets. I am genuinely interested to see if they're right. I really don't want this descending into a binfest because even I've had enough of discussing the rights and wrongs of it so here is the general Brexit discussion:
https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?343854-The-Brexit-Thread

In the meantime, I'm genuinely interested to know what Brexiteers feel about Brexit now that we are a few years down the line, with no deal looming (not what was promised) - without the sort of bitching and sniping characterised by the main thread

I said post Brexit, as things became more and more clear a vote should never have been allowed, that if given a second referendum I would remain. Not because I don't want more autonomy and sovereignty but simply because of the scale of bitterness, and near equal opposition to confound and prevent any sort of deal that subsequently unfolded, now appears to have made any chance of it working, unworkable. It's like negotiating with a gun to your head i.e. that's not a negotiation. It's a threat. Or watching two equally strong persons pulling in different directions. Nope, in retrospect, the time to have given a vote probably passed about the year 2000 i.e. before further EU state apparatus consolidated the United States of Europe e.g. free movement, more members, the Euro etc. The realisation that "you can never truly leave..." like a political Patrick McGooohan is something we learnt after the vote. We have to accept this. Democracy, well, I think we all realise these days that it ain't what it used to be! Brexit was/is a pyrrhic victory IMO. Bit like WW2 from a British perspective.

 

[Razzoo]

I voted for Brexit but I was wrong. It's not that I'm against Brexit in principle - I wouldn't have voted for it if I was - but the people negotiating it have made a complete and utter horlicks of the whole thing. It's already cost the country a fortune and will hit us even harder in the coming years.

The whole thing has been an object lesson in how not to negotiate, future historians will look on this episode and shake their heads in despair, wondering how it came to pass

It was only ever going to be a painful and complicated process, not least because the EU don't want our leaving to be smooth or painless because that makes them look pointless and opens the floodgates for other members to follow us out.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I voted for Brexit but I was wrong. It's not that I'm against Brexit in principle - I wouldn't have voted for it if I was - but the people negotiating it have made a complete and utter horlicks of the whole thing. It's already cost the country a fortune and will hit us even harder in the coming years.

The whole thing has been an object lesson in how not to negotiate, future historians will look on this episode and shake their heads in despair, wondering how it came to pass

Instead of treating it like grown ups requiring diplomatic dexterity, flexibility, and intellectual agility, our negotiations appear to have been run with the Arthur Daley school followed up with a Del Boy diploma guides to driving through a deal.

The 'they need us more than we need them' was never ever going to be the blueprint for a successful deal, and yet it seems we thought a 'plucky attitude' would get us over the line.

 

[nwgull]

Apart from the US election is not a non-binding advisory poll. Apart from that MASSIVE difference you mean

And the US election happens every 4 years, so the person you voted for can be held accountable for their promises and lies relatively quickly.

 

[Simster]

It was only ever going to be a painful and complicated process, not least because the EU don't want our leaving to be smooth or painless because that makes them look pointless and opens the floodgates for other members to follow us out.

That doesn't follow at all. It could easily have been painless - exit the EU but stay in the customs union (if not the single market) in order to keep the GFA intact. Why exactly has that not been done?

 

[Swansman]

I obviously didnt vote in your Brexit election but I am anti-EU as I like power to be decentralised and democratic and the EU is neither.

 

[daveinplzen]

I think I can comment. I was against BREXIT but accept that it is happening and there is no going back.

I would be concerned about the trade deal. Given the perilous climate we are in there is no reason not to extend the transistion period to make sure the country gets the right deal.

It won't happen because political careers and egos get in the way. That will be a shame for a lot of people.

Edit: Wrong thread

 

[Chicken Run]

Apart from the US election is not a non-binding advisory poll. Apart from that MASSIVE difference you mean

#nobinfest

 

[Bold Seagull]

It was only ever going to be a painful and complicated process, not least because the EU don't want our leaving to be smooth or painless because that makes them look pointless and opens the floodgates for other members to follow us out.

I've always felt this is the rhetoric from our side - the EU has been fairly clear on their side for 4 years. They can point to other model deals non members have. I don't see any great queue of EU members waiting to get out - I think this is something dreamed up by those that believe the EU is doomed to fail with our exit.

 

[Gwylan]

before further EU state apparatus consolidated the United States of Europe e.g. free movement

Free movement has always been part of the EEC/EU, it's an item in the 1957 Treaty of Rome

It was only ever going to be a painful and complicated process, not least because the EU don't want our leaving to be smooth or painless because that makes them look pointless and opens the floodgates for other members to follow us out.

This a complete myth. There was a survey last year of EU countries and in not a single one was there a majority who wished to leave. In pretty much every case, there was a massive desire to remain.

There's no reason why it had to be painful, there were lots of steps that we could have taken to make it as smooth as possible. For example, just staying in the customs union would have saved a good deal of the headaches we're now facing

 

[Chicken Run]

My twitter feed is full of remain people wondering if any Brexit people have regrets. I am genuinely interested to see if they're right. I really don't want this descending into a binfest because even I've had enough of discussing the rights and wrongs of it so here is the general Brexit discussion:
https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?343854-The-Brexit-Thread

In the meantime, I'm genuinely interested to know what Brexiteers feel about Brexit now that we are a few years down the line, with no deal looming (not what was promised) - without the sort of bitching and sniping characterised by the main thread

It was worth a go but the usual suspects have arrived and derailed the the thread, Watford will be along soon along with the Nico’s

 

[sparkie]

There was a decent Brexit to be had ( or at least an OK one ) but the politicians have made such a mess of sorting it out that we are now facing a disasterous flavour.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It was worth a go but the usual suspects have arrived and derailed the the thread, Watford will be along soon along with the Nico’s

There’s an easy solution to retain the integrity of the thread. The mods can simply send all posts making a Remain point from non Brexit voters to the Brexit thread.

 

[brianwade]

Very happy with it, thanks for asking.
My only discontent is with the MPs who tried to derail the process before the last election.
I would imagine the poll will be distorted by non Brexit voters at some point soon but that’s modern politics (see behavior of Trump and his supporters as another example of the inability to accept democratic votes).

Its been proven that
(i) The Brexit vote was distorted by Russian interference
(ii) The Leave campaign broke the law by spending too much money on the campaign - proven in court
(iii) The £300 million extra weekly for the NHS was a downright lie
(iv) and the remain campaign was shite

Given that the vote had less than a 2% swing is it any wonder those that voted to remain feel hard done by ?
What do you do for work by the way ? Presumably nothing that involves import or export of goods or people ?

 

[zefarelly]

That old chestnut. The 1975 referendum was held on the same terms. By your logic it should have been ignored and the Labour Government should have simply reversed Ted Heath’s un-democratic joining of the Common Market.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum

.

A referendum which has the potential to cue significant constitutional change requires a 65% margin, which 1975 got. I understand neither were 'legally binding'

David Cameron should be hung drawn and quartered for his part in making a massive balls up of everything from start to result then walking away scott free whilst agressively dividing the country for the forseable future. I don't see any favourable way out and It still infuriates me.

 

[Guinness Boy]

There’s an easy solution to retain the integrity of the thread. The mods can simply send all posts making a Remain point from non Brexit voters to the Brexit thread.

You say "easy solution".

I say I'm not wasting my Friday evening checking every post on this thread just because a couple of Karens want to call their manager.

 

[Wardy's twin]

I obviously didnt vote in your Brexit election but I am anti-EU as I like power to be decentralised and democratic and the EU is neither.

so we transfer power to a monied, political elite who give even less consideration to working rights. P.S. democracy is more to do with consensus rather than first past the post.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A referendum which has the potential to cue significant constitutional change requires a 65% margin, which 1975 got. I understand neither were 'legally binding'

David Cameron should be hung drawn and quartered for his part in making a massive balls up of everything from start to result then walking away scott free whilst agressively dividing the country for the forseable future. I don't see any favourable way out and It still infuriates me.

I agree. But this isn't the thread for this. That said, I have most of the folk likely to still be happy on ignore.

Edit: just remembered how to view a poll. I doubt that all the 'regretters' were Brexitters. If I had voted leave and been a tory I'd have no regrets. Why should I care about a little local difficulty?

Thankfully (etc etc).