[Politics] Brexit

[JC Footy Genius]

Morning everyone, less than a week to go, last Saturday as an EU citizen .. so excited. Reading back through the last few pages a couple of points stand out.

Friday nights always bring out the best in people.

MoS has fallen off the wagon after holding out for a commendable amount of time and returned to post on this sh*t show of a thread. Looking forward to his tales about meeting the new MP for Hastings & Rye, her falling in luv with him etc

I'm sure next Friday night will be far more relaxed with a general mood of relief and celebration ..

 

[sparkie]

Morning everyone, less than a week to go, last Saturday as an EU citizen .. so excited. Reading back through the last few pages a couple of points stand out.

Friday nights always bring out the best in people.

MoS has fallen off the wagon after holding out for a commendable amount of time and returned to post on this sh*t show of a thread. Looking forward to his tales about meeting the new MP for Hastings & Rye, her falling in luv with him etc

I'm sure next Friday night will be far more relaxed with a general mood of relief and celebration ..

Next Friday night is transfer deadline day... the mood of relief and celebration will depend on whether or not we have signed a striker...

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You may think that the implications of Brexit aren't huge, others maybe not. But enough of this whataboutism.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the new Irish Sea Border procedures, after Johnson insisted throughout the campaign (and when he took up the solution that Theresa May had already turned down) that there wouldn't be any. And I know you were a supporter of this solution.

Because I can only see massive downsides to business on both sides of the new border, and no benefits whatsoever

So you don't wish to comment on the points ? Instead you decide to use the remainers new catchphrase - 'whataboutism' ..... very telling. Despite it being TB comparing Brexit with slavery ? And then you divert the subject matter. Not once in this thread have you countered a point directly. It's always 'oh never mind that what about this' ..... I see Meg has been put out to pasture since getting her predictions wrong.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So you don't wish to comment on the points ? Instead you decide to use the remainers new catchphrase - 'whataboutism' ..... very telling. Despite it being TB comparing Brexit with slavery ? And then you divert the subject matter. Not once in this thread have you countered a point directly. It's always 'oh never mind that what about this' ..... I see Meg has been put out to pasture since getting her predictions wrong.

She was simply pointing out changes that were bought about outside of the ballot box

She also compared it to the corn laws, but as per usual you will try and find any minor point on any of Thunder Bolts posts to leap on, every time. I wonder why she should get so much attention from you ?

Particularly when you don't seem to want to engage with any other posters on any significant aspect of your preferred Brexit, like the parallel negotiations of 40 trade deals and the timescales set out for negotiating those deals. Or what about your support for Johnson's Irish Sea Border solution which has always been claimed to require no extra checks.

Probably best to wait for another Thunder Bolt post and then try and find an aspect of that to leap on

 

[pastafarian]

So, in amongst yet another night of your regular visceral ranting and drivel, you try and include a single fact - and, as usual, get it completely wrong

From the WTO's own website

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/fact2_e.htm

1. Most-favoured-nation (MFN): treating other people equally Under the WTO agreements, countries cannot normally discriminate between their trading partners. Grant someone a special favour (such as a lower customs duty rate for one of their products) and you have to do the same for all other WTO members.

Some exceptions are allowed. For example, countries can set up a free trade agreement that applies only to goods traded within the group — discriminating against goods from outside.

I have tried to help before, but when you get to the point that you are fantasising to this degree, you really should cut back on your puff, porn and your 'all night, nuts deep sessions on Battlefield 1 with your boys' and maybe get a little bit of sleep

Of course you can discriminate on goods in a FTA if thats what you want to negotiate, Japan can indeed strike a better trade deal with the UK on goods than it has with the EU, there is no provision that forbids Japan from doing this. And dont forget most of MFN clauses that are included in FTAs are concerning services and investment, which again Japan can strike better arrangements with The UK than it currently has with the EU. The MFN clauses in current EU deals do not forbid Japan from striking better deals on services and investment.
The discriminatory nature is with regard to the claims Japan can be forbidden from striking better trade deals, you cannot discriminate against a country in this manner.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Of course you can discriminate on goods in a FTA if thats what you want to negotiate, Japan can indeed strike a better trade deal with the UK on goods than it has with the EU, there is no provision that forbids Japan from doing this. And dont forget most of MFN clauses that are included in FTAs are concerning services and investment, which again Japan can strike better arrangements with The UK than it currently has with the EU. The MFN clauses in current EU deals do not forbid Japan from striking better deals on services and investment.
The discriminatory nature is with regard to the claims Japan can be forbidden from striking better trade deals, you cannot discriminate against a country in this manner.

Any MFN clause in the EU/Japan trade deal means that if Japan offer the UK a better deal, it would have to automatically offer it to the EU, an economy 6 times larger than the UK. So Japan can't give the UK 'a better deal', you moron

 

[pastafarian]

I'm all for fighting for your views but comparing fighting the Brexit result to some of the things on your list is somewhat over dramatic to say the least.

And somewhat agrees with leavers anyway, without really knowing it.
That democratic votes should be enacted, and after they are enacted people are still free to change their mind and go in a different direction,
No one has said for example remainers cannot campaign to rejoin the EU after we have left. This would be the correct way forward. Instead they went down the route of insisting a vote must be ignored before it is enacted.

 

[pastafarian]

Any MFN clause in the EU/Japan trade deal means that if Japan offer the UK a better deal, it must automatically offer it to the EU, an economy 6 times larger than the UK, you moron

View attachment 119460

Ummmmm yes

Completely true. The MFN clauses stipulate that if Japan decides to strike a better deal with the UK than it currently has with the EU, then those components must be extended to anyone they have a MFN clause deal with.

Thus agreeing with the fact Japan is completely free to negotiate better trade deals if it wants, but there are consequences Japan must weigh up when doing so. So it is completely wrong for people to claim Japan is forbidden from offering better trade deals than it has with the EU, because as you have just pointed out yourself Japan might offer the UK a better trade deal and is free to do so.

you can have your shovel back

 

[ManOfSussex]

MoS has fallen off the wagon after holding out for a commendable amount of time and returned to post on this sh*t show of a thread. Looking forward to his tales about meeting the new MP for Hastings & Rye, her falling in luv with him etc

Such kind words - thank you ever so much.

Luckily I've yet to meet or even see in person the new MP for Hastings & Rye. As she isn't a middle aged divorced woman, there's a fair chance she isn't a overtly sex crazed nymph like her predecessor as MP was, therefore flirting generically, inappropriately and outrageously with men, as middle aged divorced women quite often do, won't occur and it means I, and other constituents as good looking as me, are probably safe in that regard. Apparently she lives in a £2 Million, 7 bedroom house in the small village of Udimore, complete with tennis court, swimming pool and Croquet lawn - it's so lovely that the people of a deprived coastal town have an MP they can actually relate to, don't you think?

The Conservative and Unionist Party investigation into her is certainly taking its time though. Who's your MP again out of interest?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Ummmmm yes

Completely true. The MFN clauses stipulate that if Japan decides to strike a better deal with the UK than it currently has with the EU, then those components must be extended to anyone they have a MFN clause deal with.

Thus agreeing with the fact Japan is completely free to negotiate better trade deals if it wants, but there are consequences Japan must weigh up when doing so. So it is completely wrong for people to claim Japan is forbidden from offering better trade deals than it has with the EU, because as you have just pointed out yourself Japan might offer the UK a better trade deal and is free to do so.

you can have your shovel back

So Japan isn't forbidden from offering 'better terms', it just has to immediately offer those 'better terms' to the EU meaning they are no longer 'better terms'

We may be able to sign a deal with Japan which might be as good as the one we have anyway or might even be better than the existing EU -Japan deal, as there is NO provision in the existing EU - Japan trade deal, or any other trade deal that forbids Japan (or anyone for that matter) from striking better trade deals with third countries above existing trade deals ( hint- this would be against the non discriminatory rules of MFN clauses -when contained in trade agreements- that have been agreed at WTO level)

So how will the UK negotiate 'better terms' than the EU/Japan trade deal again ? (Keep the shovel, I'll leave you to it. You are doing such a great job of making yourself look an idiot that you don't need any help from me )

 

[WATFORD zero]

I see Meg has been put out to pasture since getting her predictions wrong.

It was prediction, not plural
Not at all, and the Brentford Leicester match isn't great so I thought I would check the score on Meg's predictions against yours

Here was your prediction a couple of months before the 31st March LEAVE means LEAVE date.

I'm obviously no expert but I think there only two options and each has a 50% chance of happening :

1. May gets her deal through Parliament with some fudge wording from the EU about the backstop and some bullying of back benchers 1-0

2. We leave by default with no deal 2-0

This utterly daft idea of another referendum or 'Peoples Vote' is dead.

and a month before

Ah ..... the small businessman with an unbelievable knowledge of WTO is back. OK, so to do what you always do - I suggest you look at my previous posts to find out where I think things could have been handled differently. 23 days to the no deal you absolutely promise won't happen 3-0

Quote Originally Posted by Westdene Seagull View Post
Impossible to make a prediction without knowing who the PM will be. 4-0
My good friend says she will make some completely impossible predictions then

1. Boris will get elected 5-0
2. He will try and 'rebrand' May's deal 6-0
3. We won't leave with 'no deal' on October 31st 7-0

(I guess that being proven correct with all her previous predictions on what would happen on every 'LEAVE means LEAVE' date so far, may have given her a completely unjustified level of confidence - we will see )

I make that 7-0, and then here's the one you were waiting for

I guess that since she has had her last set of predictions from before the Tory leadership election proven correct yet again, it's probably time for some more 'impossible predictions'

She says

1. There will be another hung parliament 7-1
2. The MP for Brighton Pavilion will increase their majority again 8-1

Between you and me, I think she just states the bleedin' obvious and then claims psychic powers, but if the last 3.5 years has taught us anything, it's that there's always someone out there gullible enough to fall for any old crap

[MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] - You may want to bookmark this post because Shirley, she has to get one wrong eventually

I have to admit that I was as disappointed as she was when you got the consolation to make it 8-1, but I did tell you, highlighted it and told you and JCFG to bookmark it as she was bound to get one wrong eventually

 

[pastafarian]

So Japan isn't forbidden from offering 'better terms', it just has to immediately offer those 'better terms' to the EU meaning they are no longer 'better terms'




So how will the UK negotiate 'better terms' than the EU/Japan trade deal again ? (Keep the shovel, I'll leave you to it. You are doing such a great job of making yourself look an idiot that you don't need any help from me )

Correct, it isnt forbidden, as you have already pointed out Japan is free to offer a better deal.
Japan is completely free to say to the UK "we can make a better deal than the one we currently have with the EU and improve on the terms of that EU deal, we will have to extend some of the new provisions onto the EU as we have some MFN clauses with them, but we can live with that,"
Japan is not forbidden from doing this.
Don’t forget MFN clauses can be very specific onto what they relate to and don’t cover every aspect of a trade deal. The EU has plenty of trade deals for example with MFN clauses that only relate to some services and some investments and no goods at all or aspects like visa liberalisation in a trade deal. Trade deals do not cover solely goods. The UK and Japan can make a better deal in areas where there is no MFN clause attachment.

 

[Baldseagull]

Correct, it isnt forbidden, as you have already pointed out Japan is free to offer a better deal.
Japan is completely free to say to the UK "we can make a better deal than the one we currently have with the EU and improve on the terms of that EU deal, we will have to extend some of the new provisions onto the EU as we have some MFN clauses with them, but we can live with that,"
Japan is not forbidden from doing this.
Don’t forget MFN clauses can be very specific onto what they relate to and don’t cover every aspect of a trade deal. The EU has plenty of trade deals for example with MFN clauses that only relate to some services and some investments and no goods at all or aspects like visa liberalisation in a trade deal. Trade deals do not cover solely goods. The UK and Japan can make a better deal in areas where there is no MFN clause attachment.

What areas are those in this case then Pasta?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Someone tell Watford bloke that Boris has officially signed us out of the EU , thanks
Regards
DF

 

[Hampster Gull]

Someone tell Watford bloke that Boris has officially signed us out of the EU , thanks
Regards
DF

 

[portslade seagull]

Where did Garry Nelson's teacher say 'thick, racist and xenophobic' as i must have missed it ?

Unless you mean this post


or maybe one of these




I could go on but, frankly, can't be arsed

Pot kettle black. You've never said that on this thread ?...?......... Honest

 

[WATFORD zero]

Pot kettle black. You've never said that on this thread ?...?......... Honest

I really don't know why this is so difficult to understand, but what you write on NSC does not go away. It is, therefor, very simple to see the difference between what people have written and what people claim has been written

Like your post here is complete and utter bullshit

 

[B-right-on]

Ja, we Germans are jealous of Brexit: ALEXANDER VON SCHOENBURG says his country fears Britain as they face the reality of a resurgent UK

A Germans opinion:

Headed by a strong government and sustained by a dynamic economy, it is Britain that can look forward to the future with confidence, while the EU and its member states remain trapped in bureaucratic sclerosis, obsessed with regulation and welfare when much of the rest of the world is embracing commercial freedom.

Not going to please some:

The alarmists of Project Fear predicted that this moment would be the cue for economic meltdown, yet just the opposite is happening. Britain seems ready to prosper.

This was a surprise:

Similarly, it is remarkable that EU member states account for only seven per cent of the world's population — but 50 per cent of all welfare spending.

Not all rosey in Deutschland:

The truth is that Brexit — so often sneered at by the federalists — has shone a harsh spotlight on Europe's deep-seated structural problems.

Here in Germany, our economy has long hovered on the brink of recession, with growth at its most anaemic for a decade.

Manufacturing is looking increasingly outdated as exports and capital investments suffer.

Our car industry — the backbone of our economy — now faces perhaps its biggest crisis since Gottlieb Daimler and Karl Benz invented the automobile in the 1880s.

Yet in the face of this darkening picture, Merkel — now in the last full year of her tenure — seems astonishingly complacent and impotent.

At that Champagne reception in Berlin, she boasted of her achievements, then went on to do something most unusual for a Western politician: she quoted the Russian revolutionary Lenin, who referred to the political principle of 'one step forward, two steps back'.

And no better in the rest of EUschland:

Meanwhile, the difficulties of other European countries are even worse.

Next door in France, President Emmanuel Macron is fighting a losing war in his attempt to reform the vast and creaking French state, especially its array of unaffordable pension schemes.

A glimpse into the rotten nature of France's sprawling civic bureaucracy was provided a few years ago by Aurelie Boullet, who wrote a book about her experiences as an employee at Aquitaine Regional Council.

'I was getting destroyed by my job because I had nothing to do,' she said, explaining that her actual work as a mid-ranking administrator amounted to between five and 12 hours a month.

In this culture of institutionalised idleness, she was once told that she had produced a report in the wrong typeface. She was given an entire week to change the font, though the task took her only 25 seconds.

Spain is no better and has no chance of economic renewal now that, after eight months of bickering and paralysis, the country has a socialist government propped up by the radical Left.

It is a similar story in Italy, which is stuck in perma-recession and where the state machine is hopelessly inefficient. There, as in France, attempts at reform have floundered.

Only this week, in an extraordinary judgment about a case that symbolises the mess Italy is in, an Italian court sided with a portly policeman who had been caught on film in 2015, clocking on for work in his underwear.

The case was brought as part of a crackdown on skiving officialdom, but the policeman, who lived in a flat above the station, successfully argued that actually putting on his uniform was part of his working day.

That kind of nonsense is typical of Europe, where too much of the state machinery is a self-serving racket.

Whilst over here:

A glance across the Channel to Britain is enough to make me sufficiently envious to reach for an aspirin — invented a long time ago in Germany — to quaff with the Champagne.

I see a government with a solid, one-party majority, compared to all the fragile coalitions of Europe. I see a nation with a strong sense of purpose, built on trust in its own capabilities, and a powerful economy. Indeed, according to the International Monetary Fund, Britain will be the fastest-growing G7 economy in Europe over the next two years.

I see a vibrant, open place that can attract huge amounts of foreign investment, has an unrivalled record on business start-ups, is a global pioneer of scientific and genetic research.

I see a country that has an unrivalled financial services sector, enjoys a vast cultural reach through language, music and the arts and contains several of the world's great universities.

At times, when I consider Britain, I am reminded of the bullish atmosphere that prevails in the fast-growing Asian economies.

It is all a graphic contrast to the sluggishness of Europe. When it comes to football, all the best talent is rushing to England, where the Premier League is the most attractive in the world.

But not everyone likes it

The most interesting person I spoke to at the award ceremony in Berlin was Andrew Gundlach, scion of one of Germany's most famous banking families, the Arnholds, and now President and co-CEO of Bleichroeder LLC. He is a shrewd man with a deep understanding of the geopolitical scene.

Did he think the outlook is grim for post-Brexit Britain? He laughed at the question.

'The whole point of Brexit was to align with the high growth of America and China and not low-growth Europe,' he said.

What sends cold sweat running down the spine of European policy makers, he added, is a vibrant, talent-attracting economy right on Europe's doorstep, with rule-books more liberal than the EU's.

And to round it off he says:

Europe fears a truly global Britain.

Diehard Remainers still cling to the belief that Britain will stumble, that the forthcoming negotiations on a trade deal will prove tortuous.

I am not so sure. With only ten months of talks left, Britain is in a far better position than most here on the continent dare to admit.

In Boris Johnson, you have a charismatic, election-winning Prime Minister who has forced through Brexit partly thanks to the sheer force of his personality and his ability to outmanoeuvre his opponents.

In the process, he has repeatedly defied his critics. They said he would never persuade the EU to re-open the Withdrawal Agreement, drop the Irish backstop or reach a new deal.

He achieved all three — and I believe he can do so again with a trade accord.

European politicians used to push around Johnson's predecessor, Theresa May.

Now they are confronted with a leader who really is too 'strong and stable' to be bullied.

The eminent historian Niall Ferguson recently said: 'I think Brussels has not really adjusted to the new situation, but they will adjust when they realise that Britain isn't about to be rolled over the way it was because of the way May was negotiating.

'We will see a very different tone to these negotiations.'

The Champagne at these self-congratulatory diplomatic receptions is starting to leave a sour taste.

Your future looks bright. I'm not so sure about mine.

Alexander von Schoenburg is editor-at-large at BILD, Germany's biggest-selling paper

Can read it all here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...ermany-fears-Britain-face-reality-Brexit.html

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Daily Mail

 

[Wellesley]

Someone tell Watford bloke that Boris has officially signed us out of the EU , thanks
Regards
DF

Why bother? There's no point arguing with these anti-democratic losers anymore. Ignore them and just celebrate the fact that however much they whinge and cry, we are in the majority and we ARE leaving on Friday night. These are fantastic times to be British. We can finally be proud of our country and I truly believe we have a Prime Minister we can be proud of too. Just rejoice like I'm sure you will and leave the bitter remoaners to drown in their bile.