[Politics] Brexit

[The Clamp]

I don't think I deserve to get called a thick, ignorant, racist half wit, when the thrust of my argument is that democracy should be respected.

Why would you treat a fellow albion fan like that for having a different political opinion from you?

You know, it's actually really unpleasant to be abused like that. It's time for me to stop coming on here for a while I think, this kind of thing can't be good for my psychological wellbeing.

But you’re happy to sling words like tyrant around and accuse people of being undemocratic?

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

The vote in 1975 was respected, and we took another look 40 years later. If you wanted another vote in 2055, I wouldn't oppose that. But I want us to leave now, because that is the decision we were asked to make and we made it.

We were asked to make a decision where very few people knew about the consequences of said choice. The Leave campaign and leavers have lovely tag-lines and sound bites but no one during the campaign set out definitive parameters as to what Leaving would look like. On that basis alone, the slim majority that won the vote shouldn't be subserviently bowed down to. I will continue to use my democratic right to oppose and challenge such an ill informed, advisory referendum result.

 

[Bakero]

It was clearly a mistake. As a society we have looked at our naval whilst things happen around us

Will brexiteers take that on board though? Or will they have to be pressganged?

 

[A1X]

Anything which is a half in half out scenario isn't leaving.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

I don't think I deserve to get called a thick, ignorant, racist half wit, when the thrust of my argument is that democracy should be respected.

Why would you treat a fellow albion fan like that for having a different political opinion from you?

You know, it's actually really unpleasant to be abused like that. It's time for me to stop coming on here for a while I think, this kind of thing can't be good for my psychological wellbeing.

Democracy is being respected. You just don't like that people are using their democratic rights to oppose your view. Democracy didn't cease to exist on June 24th 2016. Winning a slim majority with no mandate didn't suddenly mean that people had to subserviently stop challenging something likely to have a negative impact for decades to come. If you applied to same logic to post GE then the opposition would cease to exist and the party in power would go totally unchecked for 5 years. But, just like a GE, we have the democratic right and opportunity to change our minds if we decide that is no longer in the public interest (I would argue that it never was but hey ho...).

And, if we're going down the democracy must be respected route, then leaving with No Deal will be highly undemocratic as 54% of voters voted for party manifestos that ruled out No-Deal Brexit. So people have every right to kick up a fuss if that looks like the outcome.

 

[Hastings gull]

Democracy is being respected. You just don't like that people are using their democratic rights to oppose your view. Democracy didn't cease to exist on June 24th 2016. Winning a slim majority with no mandate didn't suddenly mean that people had to subserviently stop challenging something likely to have a negative impact for decades to come. If you applied to same logic to post GE then the opposition would cease to exist and the party in power would go totally unchecked for 5 years. But, just like a GE, we have the democratic right and opportunity to change our minds if we decide that is no longer in the public interest (I would argue that it never was but hey ho...).

And, if we're going down the democracy must be respected route, then leaving with No Deal will be highly undemocratic as 54% of voters voted for party manifestos that ruled out No-Deal Brexit. So people have every right to kick up a fuss if that looks like the outcome.

Yes, all very well, but that wasn't the thrust of Dingodan's argument. Quite understandably, he, like others, who don't come any more on to this thread, is sick and tired of insults being hurled at him, the like of which he mentions, by the anonymous, cowardly internet mob, who, despite all protestations to the contrary, have little regard for others' views. He wasn't questioning other's right to an opposing view, simply asking that they respect his, not, it would seem, that there is much chance of that.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Yes, all very well, but that wasn't the thrust of Dingodan's argument. Quite understandably, he, like others, who don't come any more on to this thread, is sick and tired of insults being hurled at him, the like of which he mentions, by the anonymous, cowardly internet mob, who, despite all protestations to the contrary, have little regard for others' views. He wasn't questioning other's right to an opposing view, simply asking that they respect his, not, it would seem, that there is much chance of that.

Seemed like it was very 'leave means leave' et al to me. I haven't hurled any insults at him/her/they but I've still been told to respect democracy

 

[Lever]

What do you mean by this, exactly?

He cannot answer.
There is a fudge at the heart of his argument and he has successfully avoided it in his exchanges with me. He doesn't know (why would he?) what practical implementation of Brexit will preserve jobs, health and professional aspirations.
No one knows for sure what the effects of a no deal Brexit will be (not even him) but it doesn't look good. Yet he has voted to gamble on people's futures.

 

[Lever]

Yes, all very well, but that wasn't the thrust of Dingodan's argument. Quite understandably, he, like others, who don't come any more on to this thread, is sick and tired of insults being hurled at him, the like of which he mentions, by the anonymous, cowardly internet mob, who, despite all protestations to the contrary, have little regard for others' views. He wasn't questioning other's right to an opposing view, simply asking that they respect his, not, it would seem, that there is much chance of that.

Well I have 'respected' his views as far as I am able - but I feel that it's okay to question those views rigorously.
What tires me (and I guess others as well) is the constant resorting to the same worn out, meaningless phraseology that scarcely deserves much credit. I agree that personal insults are unnecessary and counter-productive though.

 

[Hastings gull]

Seemed like it was very 'leave means leave' et al to me. I haven't hurled any insults at him/her/they but I've still been told to respect democracy

Yes, you personally have not hurled an insult, I agree, but the fact is that the type of insults that he mentions are certainly very prevalent on this thread, as you well know. Even though the vote went narrowly in favour of leave, virtually no one on this thread advocates it any more, and I am sure that the reason for that is largely that posters are just fed up with the insults, and so understandably vote with their feet.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes, all very well, but that wasn't the thrust of Dingodan's argument. Quite understandably, he, like others, who don't come any more on to this thread, is sick and tired of insults being hurled at him, the like of which he mentions, by the anonymous, cowardly internet mob, who, despite all protestations to the contrary, have little regard for others' views. He wasn't questioning other's right to an opposing view, simply asking that they respect his, not, it would seem, that there is much chance of that.

You see, my opinion, which should be respected, is that the reason so few Leave supporting posters come on this thread anymore is because they have no valid case whatsoever for leaving the EU as every single one has been taken apart as the situation has developed. I don't believe it is anything to do with insults by the 'the anonymous, cowardly internet mob'. (And I can guarantee that there have been at least as many posts from Leavers moaning about Insults as there were original insults )

So now we are left with 'respect the referendum'. To save me tying it yet again

This democratic vote that has to be 'respected'.

We tried leaving with a deal, and it appears there was no majority for that.

We even tried leaving with no deal (which was specifically ruled out as part of the Leave campaign), and it appears there was no majority for that.

So what should we do now to 'respect' this vote

I'm off out, but have fun

 

[Two Professors]

It was clearly a mistake. As a society we have looked at our naval whilst things happen around us

That is even better than Chopper's duelling roads! Naval review

 

[Hastings gull]

Well I have 'respected' his views as far as I am able - but I feel that it's okay to question those views rigorously.
What tires me (and I guess others as well) is the constant resorting to the same worn out, meaningless phraseology that scarcely deserves much credit. I agree that personal insults are unnecessary and counter-productive though.

We are in agreement about the insults situation, thankfully. The rest of your post, does, however, show that element of intolerance that Dingodan is referring to. Why can't you just say that you respect his views, and why do his views not deserve credit? Yours do, so why not his? The answer, of course, is that you don't agree and so what others write is not deservous of respect.

 

[Two Professors]

Yes, you personally have not hurled an insult, I agree, but the fact is that the type of insults that he mentions are certainly very prevalent on this thread, as you well know. Even though the vote went narrowly in favour of leave, virtually no one on this thread advocates it any more, and I am sure that the reason for that is largely that posters are just fed up with the insults, and so understandably vote with their feet.

Not worth engaging with them any more.Most have faced up to us Leaving and gone on to Greta worship.Just the slowest in thought left now.

 

[Simster]

Not worth engaging with them any more.Most have faced up to us Leaving and gone on to Greta worship.Just the slowest in thought left now.

Do you reckon young Greta knows the difference between "America" and "The Americas" in common English parlance?



You'd probably love the chance of mansplaining why she's wrong of course.

 

[Hastings gull]

You see, my opinion, which should be respected, is that the reason so few Leave supporting posters come on this thread anymore is because they have no valid case whatsoever for leaving the EU as every single one has been taken apart as the situation has developed. I don't believe it is anything to do with insults by the 'the anonymous, cowardly internet mob'. (And I can guarantee that there have been at least as many posts from Leavers moaning about Insults as there were original insults )

So now we are left with 'respect the referendum'. To save me tying it yet again



I'm off out, but have fun

That is precisely the sort of arrogance I was expecting and so sadly typical of you and your ilk. Yes, there have been insults hurled from all sides, but your guarantee is worthless: I wonder if you recall on another issue, when I dared to disagree with you, that you immediately resorted to name-calling?

 

[Two Professors]

Do you reckon young Greta knows the difference between "America" and "The Americas" in common English parlance?



You'd probably love the chance of mansplaining why she's wrong of course.

I'm sure you would bore her to sleep very quickly!

 

[Simster]

That is precisely the sort of arrogance I was expecting and so sadly typical of you and your ilk. Yes, there have been insults hurled from all sides, but your guarantee is worthless: I wonder if you recall on another issue, when I dared to disagree with you, that you immediately resorted to name-calling?

Sorry, but where exactly is the "arrogance" in that post. You've bolded a line that is about as inoffensive as you can get. Pathetic. Quite frankly, hardly any leavers on here ever put robust arguments up, and never have done.

 

[nicko31]

You'll get what I want out of it too.

Democratic empowerment.

Please use it responsibly.

Democratic empowerment, LOL...

Gina Miller 2 Wannabe Dictators 0

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I never said that the UK rejoining EFTA would be the same as No Deal?

You might be arguing that those represent two "kinds of leave". They don't, if we did that, we would have still left the EU. I'm not saying that there aren't multiple ways of leaving, there are, but they all represent leaving. Anything which is a half in half out scenario isn't leaving. You leave or not, there are not shades of grey. Rejoining EFTA after we left, which we could do, would not change the fact that we have left the EU. Don't misread what I was saying.

Indeed. And it must be emphasised that we were in EFTA, and HAD TO LEAVE IT, to join the Common Market.

It is impossible to be both in the EU and in EFTA.


It seems that to re-set our status to what it was before joining the Common Market is the baseline we must aim for to fulfil the referendum.


We must re-join EFTA on Day 1 after leaving the EU - and get all the EFTA Trade deals ( only those we want, of course ) for free.


As an aside, no one should get confused between EFTA and being in the EEA ( which is possible, but not compulsory for EFTA members ).