[Politics] Brexit

[Gwylan]

I tell you what, that magic money tree that didn't exist for ages, has been bloody handy in the last 3 years.

It's a magic money forest. I see that BDB was on TV tonight saying that as well as continuing to match the EU subsidies, the government was going to bail out Welsh farmers. Presumably that largesse will be extended to other farmers too. Is there no end to this government's genorosity?

 

[Baldseagull]

There it is. Enough said. I rest my case. What part of once in a life time vote don't you get?

It was billed as once in a generation, not life time, and everything else that was said has turned out to be bollox, you don't seem too fussed about that.

 

[Baldseagull]

Did you miss the referendum campaign?

If your ERG pals and the pro leave DUP had voted for it, we would be well into the withdrawal period now, furiously trying to create magic border controls.

 

[Juan Albion]

Surely what matters more than anything is that the UK does whatever is best for the UK, even if that upsets some people's mistaken idea of what democracy is. Anyone who puts their own petty ideas ahead of what's best for the country (whichever way they lean) isn't worth listening to.

 

[melias shoes]

Wrong, it wasn't just about the common market. The EU is a political union of 28 sovereign states not a federal state.

I don't think verhofstadt agrees with you. You know best though.
https://youtu.be/V5hlvdrBDtM

 

[pastafarian]

Still avoiding the question though aren't you.

No need to answer it
You really should have argued your case for remaining in the EU better before the vote occurred.
Makes no sense you wanting to still argue now whether we should decide to leave or decide to remain in the EU, after the decision to Leave has already been given by a vote and when the polling booths for the 2016 referendum are no longer open.

 

[pastafarian]

Yeah I’m

Both referendum were pre- legislative votes. Meaning they were consultative or non- binding, only meant to be a pointer to Government on the mood of the populace at that particular point in time. Unlike the ROI, the British Government is not legally obligated to act on the result of a referendum.
Historically this country has never relied on plebiscite to make difficult decisions. We are a constitutional Monarchy and therefore previous to the 1975 referendum all important decisions for our nation was made in Parliament.

Great stuff, let parliament decide then how we should Leave the EU (no need for another vote) after receiving the non binding instruction they received from the electorate after they decided to delegate the decision to the people.
Its what people expected to happen anyway.....the people vote with an instruction (ie simply LEAVE)....up to the executive to negotiate that instruction .....and parliament to approve what the executive have negotiated or allow the instruction given by the people to happen anyway without an agreement according to International law in the Lisbon treaty.....which hopefully remainers read before they voted.

If we leave on the 31st October, it will be with the withdrawal agreement we already have or very similar, but I think that would be a long shot, it has been refused 3 times already. Boris is bluffing on No Deal, it would end the Tories, which leaves extension or revocation. IMHO.

I agree with you, if we leave on oct 31st with a withdrawal agreement that he wants, then the bluff of Boris regarding no deal will have worked and will have achieved its purpose.

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

There is no requirement to do the vote again because you don’t like the decision given. The Referendum Act provided a one off opportunity to answer the question posed, with no requirement for a follow up vote. If remain politicians wanted another chance at the decision given in the event they ended up losing the vote, then they should have written that into the Act. A losers clause so to speak.
Incidentally, the vote was also described as a once in a generation decision, it was the first time the country would have a referendum vote on membership of the European Union, the previous one being a vote on the European Community/Common Market not the European Union (a few people think they are the same thing).

Come on Pasta, 5 benefits of leaving. Or the full 10 if you're really eager.

 

[pastafarian]

Come on Pasta, 5 benefits of leaving. Or the full 10 if you're really eager.

I refer you to the answer i gave above, if you are still not ready to accept the pre-referendum discussions of deciding how to vote in the referendum regarding the pros and cons of being in or out of the EU ,ended when the decision to leave was returned after voting ended....then that is your problem.
You are fully entitled to whine years after the vote has concluded but if you wanted to put forward your case on NSC before voting ended in the referendum you should have done so before the vote and not waited until dec 2018 to join NSC and then moan about the decision that was given

Ps Why the arrogance that leavers must have 5 or 10 benefits to have a valid vote in your eyes.
The question was simply Leave or Remain......voters are not required to justify themselves to you, your arrogance that they should speaks volumes.

 

[Nobby]

There is no requirement to do the vote again because you don’t like the decision given. The Referendum Act provided a one off opportunity to answer the question posed, with no requirement for a follow up vote. If remain politicians wanted another chance at the decision given in the event they ended up losing the vote, then they should have written that into the Act. A losers clause so to speak.
Incidentally, the vote was also described as a once in a generation decision, it was the first time the country would have a referendum vote on membership of the European Union, the previous one being a vote on the European Community/Common Market not the European Union (a few people think they are the same thing).

See, I’m with Pastafarian on this.

People who voted in this country thought long and hard about where to place their x.

People who voted Remain, believed that they would be better off voting Remain, and people who voted Leave, believed that they would be better off voting Leave.

At the end of the day, we will probably leave.

But based on the fact that most politicians that get voted in, never achieve what they say they are going to achieve, I just wonder where we will all be a couple of years after leaving.

Currently I’m personally worse off, and currently Pastafarian is worse off. Reduced £ causing food and fuel inflation.

And based on non politicians across media, social media, news etc - I now believe that we will all be even more worse off than now and than when we all voted.

And at the end of the day that’s what it is all about isn’t it? Every single one of us normal Joe’s will be worse off in some way.

And that’s sad really and it isn’t what anyone voted for.

 

[pastafarian]

See, I’m with Pastafarian on this.

People who voted in this country thought long and hard about where to place their x.

People who voted Remain, believed that they would be better off voting Remain, and people who voted Leave, believed that they would be better off voting Leave.

At the end of the day, we will probably leave.

But based on the fact that most politicians that get voted in, never achieve what they say they are going to achieve, I just wonder where we will all be a couple of years after leaving.

Currently I’m personally worse off, and currently Pastafarian is worse off. Reduced £ causing food and fuel inflation.

And based on non politicians across media, social media, news etc - I now believe that we will all be even more worse off than now and than when we all voted.

And at the end of the day that’s what it is all about isn’t it? Every single one of us normal Joe’s will be worse off in some way.

And that’s sad really and it isn’t what anyone voted for.

Depends what your subjective view on " better off" or "worse off" is and how you decide to measure that.

I will always believe we are better off returning sovereign powers back to Westminster instead of ceding powers to Brussels and better off controlling EU immigration than not having the ability to end free movement......and now better off respecting a vote rather than ignoring the decision to leave and destroying democratic accountability that will lead to chaos.
I didnt vote to be richer.Never even crossed my mind
What value do you put on the parameters of sovereignty and why i wanted to leave?

 

[Nobby]

Depends what your subjective view on " better off" or "worse off" is and how you decide to measure that.

I will always believe we are better off returning sovereign powers back to Westminster instead of ceding powers to Brussels and better off controlling EU immigration than not having the ability to end free movement......and now better off respecting a vote rather than ignoring the decision to leave and destroying democratic accountability that will lead to chaos.
I didnt vote to be richer.Never even crossed my mind
What value do you put on why i wanted to leave?

Well I suppose I wouldn’t have thought that you would want to be poorer just to stop free movement and not cede more power to Brussels
I suppose it depends on personal circumstance but personally I don’t want me and my family poorer financially - whether we have politicians in London or Brussels controlling me makes not a jot of difference as most of them are liars and cheats and I can’t really influence what they do.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

See, I’m with Pastafarian on this.

People who voted in this country thought long and hard about where to place their x.

People who voted Remain, believed that they would be better off voting Remain, and people who voted Leave, believed that they would be better off voting Leave.

At the end of the day, we will probably leave.

But based on the fact that most politicians that get voted in, never achieve what they say they are going to achieve, I just wonder where we will all be a couple of years after leaving.

Currently I’m personally worse off, and currently Pastafarian is worse off. Reduced £ causing food and fuel inflation.

And based on non politicians across media, social media, news etc - I now believe that we will all be even more worse off than now and than when we all voted.

And at the end of the day that’s what it is all about isn’t it? Every single one of us normal Joe’s will be worse off in some way.

And that’s sad really and it isn’t what anyone voted for.

Most people who voted Leave did so in the firm expectation that the economy would take a hit in the short term. It was clear that they were prepared to put up with this, to get the end result they wanted. It was obvious to most that it would be bloody and quite painful, after an association lasting 40 years. The financial markets are generally built around confidence and a clear way forward. For the last three years there has been too much negativity and this had clearly had a detrimental effect on the economy and leaves us in the recessive state we are now in. Spending levels are low, confidence is low and businesses are suffering. I don't blame Remainers. They are fighting their cause with a passion and a conviction that it is better to stay in the EU.
Although it is a simplistic view, it does appear that the Leave/Remain voters generally fall into one of two categories. Either, those that are more tolerant of anticipated economic hardship or those that are not.
( If you consider yourself worse off as an individual spare a thought for many of the 4.5-5 million SME's, the lifeblood of this country, who are now having to contribute to compulsory workplace pensions, on top of NI contributions and corporation tax, as well as many other hidden costs that our bureaucratic brothers like to foist on us. Believe you me, life is considerably tougher as an employer at the moment, than as an individual )

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

OCTOBER 31ST 2019 JUDGEMENT DAY
regards
DR

 

[pastafarian]

Well I suppose I wouldn’t have thought that you would want to be poorer just to stop free movement and not cede more power to Brussels
I suppose it depends on personal circumstance but personally I don’t want me and my family poorer financially - whether we have politicians in London or Brussels controlling me makes not a jot of difference as most of them are liars and cheats and I can’t really influence what they do.

I fully understand why you elevate your personal finances above why many leavers chose to vote in the way they did .I dont blame you for putting your wallet first over the pros and cons of being in the EU. Many remainers were the same.
And you are fully entitled to not care if those that are accountable to us are either from Brussels or Westminster. There are however quite a number of leavers that do care. It has in fact been the major sticking point for decades, even amongst parliament itself.

 

[Berty23]

Most people who voted Leave did so in the firm expectation that the economy would take a hit in the short term. It was clear that they were prepared to put up with this, to get the end result they wanted. It was obvious to most that it would be bloody and quite painful, after an association lasting 40 years. The financial markets are generally built around confidence and a clear way forward. For the last three years there has been too much negativity and this had clearly had a detrimental effect on the economy and leaves us in the recessive state we are now in. Spending levels are low, confidence is low and businesses are suffering. I don't blame Remainers. They are fighting their cause with a passion and a conviction that it is better to stay in the EU.
Although it is a simplistic view, it does appear that the Leave/Remain voters generally fall into one of two categories. Either, those that are more tolerant of anticipated economic hardship or those that are not.
( If you consider yourself worse off as an individual spare a thought for many of the 4.5-5 million SME's, the lifeblood of this country, who are now having to contribute to compulsory workplace pensions, on top of NI contributions and corporation tax, as well as many other hidden costs that our bureaucratic brothers like to foist on us. Believe you me, life is considerably tougher as an employer at the moment, than as an individual )

Did the majority of leave voters make that choice accepting would be worse off or is this rewriting history? Can you share the people on the leave side saying this would be the case? Also how long was short term? As I recall the negative predictions were dismissed as project fear. This all feels a bit like Raab saying he discussed no deal before the vote and he accused the bbc of poor corporate memory about it.

Did the leave campaign make it clear people would be worse off and for how long?

 

[ManOfSussex]

Most people who voted Leave did so in the firm expectation that the economy would take a hit in the short term. It was clear that they were prepared to put up with this, to get the end result they wanted. It was obvious to most that it would be bloody and quite painful, after an association lasting 40 years.

So you're saying benefit claimants, living on small, fixed incomes, who voted leave were prepared to put up with a further painful and bloody hit to their finances?

 

[daveinplzen]

Did the majority of leave voters make that choice accepting would be worse off or is this rewriting history? Can you share the people on the leave side saying this would be the case? Also how long was short term? As I recall the negative predictions were dismissed as project fear. This all feels a bit like Raab saying he discussed no deal before the vote and he accused the bbc of poor corporate memory about it.

Did the leave campaign make it clear people would be worse off and for how long?

It is as you say, re-writing history. I don't imagine for a minute that the sunlit uplands, having our cake and eating it, related to being poorer, individually, or as a nation.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

As you were already so well informed no doubt.

Lets be honest, it hasn't been difficult to see the direction the EU has been heading for the last 25 years and the complete failure of Cameron and his team to re-negotiate our terms, finally concentrated a lot of minds on the issue. Most people will have decided long before the referendum whether they favoured globalism and centralised control or whether they favoured independence and self-control. For many, no further information was needed. It was as simple as that.
We can all spend hours debating the finer points of Remaining or Leaving but this is at the core of the argument and is the main cause of the divide.

 

[WATFORD zero]

( If you consider yourself worse off as an individual spare a thought for many of the 4.5-5 million SME's, the lifeblood of this country, who are now having to contribute to compulsory workplace pensions, on top of NI contributions and corporation tax, as well as many other hidden costs that our bureaucratic brothers like to foist on us. Believe you me, life is considerably tougher as an employer at the moment, than as an individual )

And will get far worse if we were to leave

https://smallbusiness.co.uk/small-business-will-be-especially-badly-hit-by-no-deal-warns-cbi-2548204/

https://bestadvice.co.uk/brexit-affecting-smes-ability-to-deal-with-cashflow/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/23/banks-single-small-businesses-threat-no-deal-brexit/

https://iwcapital.co.uk/should-smes-worry-about-a-no-deal-brexit/

I know of a number of SMEs who have lead times of more than 90 days on sales and have been completely f***ed over by this complete farce for the best part of 2019, taking orders with absolutely no idea of the price of delivery