[Politics] Brexit

[Gwylan]

If Boris is "successful" I'm convinced we will end up out with some form of freedom of movement.

1) That isn't a sticking point in parliament not even with the ERG. They need that for their Utopian society.

2) Not many MPs are going to out themselves as anti-immigration.

3) Boris is very pro freedom of movement. In fact it's the only consistent political position he has taken.

Yes, I'm beginning to think that as well.

He's very insistent on being out of the EU by 31/10. He knows he can't get 'no deal' through the house so he has two options: another GE (which is very, very risky) or a revised deal. The EU aren't really going to play ball unless he moves one of May's red lines. I suspect he will either put the border in the Irish Sea, keeping NI in the CU or sign up for some form of FoM - or even stay in the EEA.

I can't see any other options for him

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You're getting very hot under the collar over the Libdems. Are you Nige getting worried that Bollox to brexit means Bollox to brexit, and that leave might not mean leave?

The Brexiteers have started to target the Libdems a lot recently on here.

I'd like to think any true Albion supporter would always target the Lib Dems as a dispicable party of liars regardless of that supporter's views on Brexit. Even more so if they happen to be a student at uni. Sadly some supporters have very short memories.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

The Johnson era will be characterised by many things. One of his standard tropes is to list all the 'wonderful', 'world leading' (etc etc - choose your superlatives) British industries, sectors and public services, He delivers this is a frantic fashion, almost as if the list is so long that he can't cram it all in. (In fact, it's to stop the audience from having the time to actually consider what he's saying.). It works very well when he has an audience, especially a Boris-friendly one. It dies a bit of death when done to camera.

But the question I'd like to ask is this: if everything is so wonderful about UK plc, then how come we have politicians like him at the top who are basically a shovel of shite? The snake-oil salesman is now our PM.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Yes. By Backdoor Boris and Farage. Those ***** telling you lies.

As opposed to the incredibly honest Cameron and Osborne who spent £9m of taxpayers money on an ' unbiased ' leaflet.
" The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU "
" Article 50 will be triggered immediately upon a Leave vote "
" This is a once in a generation decision. There is no going back "
" An emergency budget would be immediately necessary "
" Voting to Leave the UK would immediately have a damaging effect on the UK economy "
.......or Nick Clegg....
" The idea of an EU army is a dangerous fantasy "
I assume these were all innocent mistakes or misunderstandings rather than blatant lies.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

If Boris is "successful" I'm convinced we will end up out with some form of freedom of movement.

1) That isn't a sticking point in parliament not even with the ERG. They need that for their Utopian society.

2) Not many MPs are going to out themselves as anti-immigration.

3) Boris is very pro freedom of movement. In fact it's the only consistent political position he has taken.

No one is ' anti-immigration '...... we have had it for the whole of our history.
What no one factored in, was our political leaders deciding that, instead of a controlled and managed policy that resulted in roughly 30,000 per year coming in above the figure going out, they would allow complete, uncontrolled access to 500,000 to....name your figure.......coming in, unchecked for 15 years.
Fortunately, this policy was naturally followed by huge road-building schemes, numerous more schools, hospitals, surgeries, prisons etc all being built, all around the country, to help our infrastructure cope with this ever growing population. After all, only a raving lunatic would think that you could absorb all these people and not suffer any after effects, particularly as the majority gravitated towards London, the S.E and the major towns and cities, where there was the most work. The areas, of course, where there was already the most social pressure.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

You're getting very hot under the collar over the Libdems. Are you Nige getting worried that Bollox to brexit means Bollox to brexit, and that leave might not mean leave?

The Brexiteers have started to target the Libdems a lot recently on here.

Waste of time. Jo Swinson has just ensured that the Bollocks party will slip quietly back to a position of peaceful and harmless minority, gradually losing support and regaining their rightful place, somewhere near the bottom of the pile, alongside the Greens and above the rapidly disappearing Brexit and UKIP. Not forgetting the fantastically forceful...." Change UK " ..." The Independent Group for Change " or whatever new name that Anna Sourberry thinks up....maybe...." The New UK Monster Raving Loony Party "....it has a ring about it.

 

[Simster]

Waste of time. Jo Swinson has just ensured that the Bollocks party will slip quietly back to a position of peaceful and harmless minority, gradually losing support and regaining their rightful place, somewhere near the bottom of the pile, alongside the Greens and above the rapidly disappearing Brexit and UKIP. Not forgetting the fantastically forceful...." Change UK " ..." The Independent Group for Change " or whatever new name that Anna Sourberry thinks up....maybe...." The New UK Monster Raving Loony Party "....it has a ring about it.

No she hasn't. A large number of people were crying out for someone who appears normal, and that is exactly how she comes across - a bit like that incredibly popular PM of New Zealand.

We'll see. If the LibDems run a decent campaign, they will make huge gains in the upcoming general election of a couple of months time, especially if the Greens and ChangeUK do the right thing and step.aside so as not to split the anti-Brexit vote. The pleasing thing is that the Brexit party want to do the same with the Tories, but don't trust them to deliver Brexit.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

No one is ' anti-immigration '...... we have had it for the whole of our history.
What no one factored in, was our political leaders deciding that, instead of a controlled and managed policy that resulted in roughly 30,000 per year coming in above the figure going out, they would allow complete, uncontrolled access to 500,000 to....name your figure.......coming in, unchecked for 15 years.
Fortunately, this policy was naturally followed by huge road-building schemes, numerous more schools, hospitals, surgeries, prisons etc all being built, all around the country, to help our infrastructure cope with this ever growing population. After all, only a raving lunatic would think that you could absorb all these people and not suffer any after effects, particularly as the majority gravitated towards London, the S.E and the major towns and cities, where there was the most work. The areas, of course, where there was already the most social pressure.

Brexit will not stop immigration. It will change the demograph of the immigrants, but trade deals done in the future will have visa clauses written into them.

 

[Gwylan]

if the Greens and ChangeUK do the right thing and step.aside so as not to split the anti-Brexit vote.

Why should the Green Party step aside across the country? According to opinion polls, they're currently polling about three times their last GE vote, they did very well in the EU elections and made gains in council seats all over the UK - the best performing party, in fact.

I don't see any reason why, just as the party is permeating the national consciousness, it should give it all up

 

[Simster]

Why should the Green Party step aside across the country? According to opinion polls, they're currently polling about three times their last GE vote, they did very well in the EU elections and made gains in council seats all over the UK - the best performing party, in fact.

I don't see any reason why, just as the party is permeating the national consciousness, it should give it all up

You're right. I'm sure they won't step aside by default, and the LibDems will also need to do their fair share of stepping aside in areas where the Greens are gaining ground. These are the sort of negotiations that will need to happen well ahead of any GE if they want to have a chance of stopping an insane for of Brexit.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Why should the Green Party step aside across the country? According to opinion polls, they're currently polling about three times their last GE vote, they did very well in the EU elections and made gains in council seats all over the UK - the best performing party, in fact.

I don't see any reason why, just as the party is permeating the national consciousness, it should give it all up

I can't really see The Scottish Green Party and The Lib Dems forming a pact with their fundamental differing positions on the union and Trident renewal, to name but two issues.

 

[clapham_gull]

Iain Duncan Smith referred to Priti Patel as "coming from the sub-continent" this morning on the radio.

She was born in Harrow.....

 

[ManOfSussex]

Iain Duncan Smith referred to Priti Patel as "coming from the sub-continent" this morning on the radio.

She was born in Harrow.....

Of Ugandan Asian parents.............

 

[clapham_gull]

As opposed to the incredibly honest Cameron and Osborne who spent £9m of taxpayers money on an ' unbiased ' leaflet.
" The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU "
" Article 50 will be triggered immediately upon a Leave vote "
" This is a once in a generation decision. There is no going back "
" An emergency budget would be immediately necessary "
" Voting to Leave the UK would immediately have a damaging effect on the UK economy "
.......or Nick Clegg....
" The idea of an EU army is a dangerous fantasy "
I assume these were all innocent mistakes or misunderstandings rather than blatant lies.

Except I'm not debating immigration. Boris Johnson is very pro continuing freedom of movement with the EU, that's a fact.

He said so in a meeting with a number of EU ambassadors post Brexit. It was leaked to the press and he went ballistic. The angriest they have ever seen him according to witnesses.

His PR went into action and cited ANOTHER meeting where the subject wasn't brought up, getting a quote from an ambassador who wasn't at the first.

The newspaper was forced to print a retraction. However, the original source of the information has now gone public.

The reality is Boris is not politically aligned with most of his cabinet members on a number of subjects. They make him look left wing.

 

[Gwylan]

You're right. I'm sure they won't step aside by default, and the LibDems will also need to do their fair share of stepping aside in areas where the Greens are gaining ground. These are the sort of negotiations that will need to happen well ahead of any GE if they want to have a chance of stopping an insane for of Brexit.

Yes, that's the approach that needs to happen - and Plaid Cymru and the SNP could also play a part in this.

One thing that various commentators have pointed out is that the EU is much better at negotiations because they nearly all come from countries where coalitions (and concomitant horse-trading) is normal. The UK with its FPTP system doesn't have this experience. Maybe the LDs, Greens and others can make a start.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I didn’t miss anything, healthy eurosceptism has been in all the main parties over the years, its why things like Maastricht and The Lisbon Treaty didn’t have an easy ride through the parliamentary process. But we digress, you have gone off on a tangent away from the topic of not respecting the decision given by a referendum vote, probably deliberately I suspect as its really quite embarrassing for you to fully admit you support not respecting the decision given by a referendum vote if you don’t like the outcome decision given……even though, tbh, you have made it perfectly clear in the past you are an undemocratic loon and don’t think referendum outcomes need to be respected if you don’t agree with the decision given.
I think you should double down, go ultra loon and add, of course we can ignore the referendum result,it was only advisory after all and just another opinion poll,……but lets have another one, which of course, goes without saying we will adhere to if remain win……but obviously will be ignored again if Leave win a second time .

We are talking about slightly different things: I was referring about the ancient principle (see Edmund Burke) of MPs fighting for what they feel is right even when it conflicts with the stated views of the people who voted them into power. I used the example of Tory MPs in the 90s trying to reverse the policies which had previously contributed to their party winning the support of the electorate. I supported their right to do that, as do you of course (you described their activities as 'healthy' - a good word). You preferred to focus purely on the views of the public only when they were obtained through a referendum.

Your argument is that a referendum is quite different from any other form of democratic mandate. Mine is that the 250-year-old principles of Edmund Burke apply across the board. Your view, with which I disagree, has my respect. My view, I know, has your contempt. Perhaps it is best left there.

 

[Baldseagull]

That's how you get promoted in the Tory party.

Wants to bring back the death penalty, impose food shortages on Ireland....

Lovely lady...

She has changed her mind on the death penalty, 2011 pro death penalty, 2016 anti death penalty. Nice to be able to change your mind before the guillotine falls.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

We are talking about slightly different things: I was referring about the ancient principle (see Edmund Burke) of MPs fighting for what they feel is right even when it conflicts with the stated views of the people who voted them into power. I used the example of Tory MPs in the 90s trying to reverse the policies which had previously contributed to their party winning the support of the electorate. I supported their right to do that, as do you of course (you described their activities as 'healthy' - a good word). You preferred to focus purely on the views of the public only when they were obtained through a referendum.

Your argument is that a referendum is quite different from any other form of democratic mandate. Mine is that the 250-year-old principles of Edmund Burke apply across the board. Your view, with which I disagree, has my respect. My view, I know, has your contempt. Perhaps it is best left there.

Wonderfully well put!

 

[ManOfSussex]

Brexit will not stop immigration. It will change the demograph of the immigrants, but trade deals done in the future will have visa clauses written into them.

I believe the new Home Secretary once said visa restrictions for Indians needed to be relaxed. Irrespective of whether Theresa May's red lines are now binned and FOM continues or not, there's an awful lot of Brexit backing, Singapore model loving, complete with the 30% of it's workforce being low paid immigrants, in cabinet now and so many exciting new trade deals to be done with the rest of the world in the future and so much of the rest of the world outside of Europe is made of developing countries too - very useful if you want to deregulate employment laws and have lower wages because you believe in Britain so much you want it to be like Singapore.

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes respect the outcome of a vote when parliament offers a vote and the overwhelming consensus in rightly that the decision given will be respected.
Obviously an utterly alien concept to you.........but then you are a lib dem supporter, no wonder you find it "strange"



Yes benign nationalism.
You obviously hate benign nationalism if you mock it, but this is not really a surprise considering you are a europhile.
What is wrong with benign nationalism such as patriotism, shared national values and shared national identity?

The shared National values, which used to include a sense of fair play, sticking up for the under dog, respect for people of differing faith and ethnicity, have all come under attack from Farage and Johnson. Patriotism is abused by Farage and Johnson, and many people who did identify as British are taking Irish Passports if they can get them.
So this Benign Nationalism, which existed, has been taken and radicalised, so we have people like you, advocating taking a course of action that makes us weaker as a country, economically, politically and socially, and claiming to do it as a patriot. Are you really so unaware of what you have become?