[Politics] Brexit

[ManOfSussex]

Both sides of the house are in part responsible for not agreeing a deal. Labour's position is simply that the deal the conservatives have put on the table, is a shit deal, and most conservatives agree that it's a shit deal, so it's not really on Labour if the people vote for a far right candidate.

They're still going to get accused of being to blame by the Tories at every opportunity though if as a result of these 11th hour talks an A50 extension happens that necessitates an election in which it happens. Very explosive political mud to be able throw too.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So just to be clear - you're quite happy to believe experts about the suggested economic benefits of staying the EU but dismiss the experts entirely about the possibility of a 'no deal' ?

Well obviously I'm not going to believe people who are completely wrong, DOH

 

[portlock seagull]

[MENTION=396]WATFORD zero[/MENTION] - you do realise that long list of Professors means feck all? Hundreds believe the opposite. Put two in the same room and they’ll disagree with each other. It’s what they do, the entire ‘art’ of economics is deeply flawed, because it’s about predicting the future and we nearly always get it wrong. Don’t take my word for it though, get Mervyn Kings book about the end of Alchemy as he calls it. I also attended a lecture he did just prior to Brexit where he made this point. Nice chap too, had a brief chat with after.

 

[WATFORD zero]

[MENTION=396]WATFORD zero[/MENTION] - you do realise that long list of Professors means feck all? Hundreds believe the opposite. Put two in the same room and they’ll disagree with each other. It’s what they do, the entire ‘art’ of economics is deeply flawed, because it’s about predicting the future and we nearly always get it wrong. Don’t take my word for it though, get Mervyn Kings book about the end of Alchemy as he calls it. I also attended a lecture he did just prior to Brexit where he made this point. Nice chap too, had a brief chat with after.

To be fair, I think all these things have some value. How much value is debatable but it was in answer to a post that said because an individual economist had said Brexit would benefit the UK economy 'long term' that this was the case.

I was simply pointing out that more qualified economists said the opposite.

What that means (rather like the economist Mervyn King's view, who I have great respect for) is open for each of us to interpret

 

[Two Professors]

An interesting take on the Newport by-election. Despite voting 56% for Brexit, they have returned a Remain MP. Yes, Labour always win in Newport, but despite the warnings that Labour voters would desert them if they campaigned for Remain, the vote was upheld.
Hamilton just about kept his deposit.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-finished-leave-constituency-just-14240090

What a load of ill-informed rubbish.IRA re-activated?It's never gone away.

 

[pb21]

What are you talking about? Whether they Corbyn met May or not, Labour didn't back May's deal.

The Labour manifesto (on which their MPs were elected) did not offer a second referendum, so why on earth would the party break apart if we don't get one?

Labour have been under no obligation to back May's deal so cannot take responsibility for this failing. What they potentially will end taking responsibility for is not being able to work with the Tories to come to a workable solution. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the Tory party and the right-wing press will ensure this happens at every opportunity.

May's plan is failing and she wont want the her/ the Tories taking 100% of the backlash for that. The Tory party are in full damage limitation mode at the moment.

Whilst Labour's manifesto does not offer a second referendum it also does not explicitly rule out one either.

 

[Two Professors]

Talking of elections,if we are staying in the EU for a bit,can we vote for the new President of the EU Commission?Or has Selmayr already got the job?

 

[Triggaaar]

Again, as a result of these talks on attempting to reach an agreement, Labour will now be accused of being to blame if there's a lengthy A50 delay or a no deal from not backing May's deal.

Accused by whom? It doesn't matter what the Tories accuse Labour of, it goes without saying that both parties will always blame each other. What matters is what the public think, and the idea that Labour are to blame for not backing May's deal, purely because Corbyn got invited to talks and accepted, is preposterous. It makes no sense. Labour either back May's deal or they don't. Corbyn meeting May doesn't change that.

Sorry I appreciate your childish pedantry affliction

Oh grow up. You call me childish, but here you are resorting to insults. I don't agree that Corbyn meeting May is him falling into a trap that will damage the Labour party and more than they'd be damaged by him refusing. Rather than put forward a coherent argument, you're resorting to pathetic insults.

so let me rephrase that so you might understand better

what is essentially always going to be seen as ultimately a Tory, Brexit deal of May's making even if some form of compromise agreement was reached (which won't happen) so the A50/No deal accusation can be thrown at them.

But that's got nothing to do with whether Corbyn met May or not.

Their conference motion in the autumn on a 2nd referendum was quite clear. The support for it in their parliamentary party and membership, including Momentum, is quite clear and large. The tensions within their front bench and back benches is blatantly obvious, though I accept maybe not to you.

Oh more insults, excellent.

If there is agreement on reaching a deal (which will be a poor deal if there is compared to the status quo) with or without a confirmatory vote there will be huge divisions and they will have to reap them.

Yes, but none of that is because of Corbyn meeting May.

If Labour want to reject every deal on the table, and also not even put forward their own options, then of course they're going to take some blame for causing delays or forcing No Deal. That's always been the case, and is nothing to do with whether Corbyn agreed to meet May or not. I could throw some insults at you for not understanding that, but personally I think this thread has already had enough insults.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Accused by whom? It doesn't matter what the Tories accuse Labour of, it goes without saying that both parties will always blame each other. What matters is what the public think, and the idea that Labour are to blame for not backing May's deal, purely because Corbyn got invited to talks and accepted, is preposterous. It makes no sense. Labour either back May's deal or they don't. Corbyn meeting May doesn't change that.

Oh grow up. You call me childish, but here you are resorting to insults. I don't agree that Corbyn meeting May is him falling into a trap that will damage the Labour party and more than they'd be damaged by him refusing. Rather than put forward a coherent argument, you're resorting to pathetic insults.


But that's got nothing to do with whether Corbyn met May or not.

Oh more insults, excellent.

Yes, but none of that is because of Corbyn meeting May.

If Labour want to reject every deal on the table, and also not even put forward their own options, then of course they're going to take some blame for causing delays or forcing No Deal. That's always been the case, and is nothing to do with whether Corbyn agreed to meet May or not. I could throw some insults at you for not understanding that, but personally I think this thread has already had enough insults.

Oh another pedantic multi quote response, how sweet.

TL;DR

 

[Triggaaar]

They're still going to get accused of being to blame by the Tories at every opportunity though if as a result of these 11th hour talks an A50 extension happens that necessitates an election in which it happens. Very explosive political mud to be able throw too.

They're going to get blamed by the Tories regardless, and equally they will blame the Tories. Labour don't have to back May's deal, but they do have to put forward an alternative that they would back. If the Tories don't agree to the alternative, it will then be down to the public to decide who was being unreasonable.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Talking of elections,if we are staying in the EU for a bit,can we vote for the new President of the EU Commission?Or has Selmayr already got the job?

The heads of state vote for the President.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Well obviously I'm not going to believe people who are completely wrong, DOH

Ah silly me, experts that back your view are correct, experts that back an alternative view are wrong. At least you've finally admitted your arrogance and blinkeredness ( if there is such a word ! ).

 

[Westdene Seagull]

No I don't. The average salery in the UK is somthing like 27k. Do you live under a rock?

You reacted with surprise that there are plenty of people on those salaries ..... anyone with any real life business experience would have known those salaries are quite common. You might want to look up what 'average' means and how it's calculated - nobody suggested that salary level was the majority, more that it's quite common. I can't remember the last time I worked in a business where those salaries aren't quite common.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

No I don't. The average salery in the UK is somthing like 27k. Do you live under a rock?

Unless you run your own business, where you learn early in the process, that you are the last one to get paid if finances dictate that. There are 4-5 million small and medium sized businesses in this country and many are often only able to pay themselves a fraction of this, after ensuring that employees get paid and the ever increasing costs placed on them by the government and the regulatory burden of the EU, are met.
It is generally the middle-class, in employment, experiencing a very comfortable lifestyle in recent years, in this country, who are the most sensitive and protective about changes in their lifestyle. Those that employ and wealth create and indeed, those at the more under-privileged end of the spectrum, are more inured to hardship, sacrifice and finding ways to survive.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Labour have been under no obligation to back May's deal so cannot take responsibility for this failing. What they potentially will end taking responsibility for is not being able to work with the Tories to come to a workable solution. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the Tory party and the right-wing press will ensure this happens at every opportunity.

May's plan is failing and she wont want the her/ the Tories taking 100% of the backlash for that. The Tory party are in full damage limitation mode at the moment.

Whilst Labour's manifesto does not offer a second referendum it also does not explicitly rule out one either.

Whilst what you have said there may well be true, they have also opened themselves up to criticism in that they have made it well known that they do NOT oppose the Withdrawal Agreement. It is the non-binding, up for grabs, Political Declaration that they have the issue with.

 

[ManOfSussex]

They are common...but above the average!? How does that work!?

Because you're talking to people from southern England who move in such circles and despite being in the top 5% of earners in the country in earning more than £70k pa don't like being called 'privileged' - sometimes their credit cards can get declined due to an EPSOS error when buying £200 worth of wine at Waitrose - they might have to go and draw out cash to pay instead and get wet if it's raining, especially if they've left their debit card in their Range Rover.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

They are common...but above the average!? How does that work!?

Maths not your strong point then No wonder you don't earn those levels.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

France is opposing any further extension, if it does not have a concrete plan with clear support in the Commons, saying that without one Britain must be deemed to have chosen to leave the EU without a deal.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You reacted with surprise that there are plenty of people on those salaries ..... anyone with any real life business experience would have known those salaries are quite common. You might want to look up what 'average' means and how it's calculated - nobody suggested that salary level was the majority, more that it's quite common. I can't remember the last time I worked in a business where those salaries aren't quite common.

It might be in your circles but certainly not in manufacturing. My husband is an electronics design engineer and earns less than £27K.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

France is opposing any further extension, if it does not have a concrete plan with clear support in the Commons, saying that without one Britain must be deemed to have chosen to leave the EU without a deal.

Think I'm right in saying that it only takes one of the 27 to oppose an extension and out we go. Quite right too. Might be about THE one scenario that forces the political pygmies in parliament to focus on something beyond their personal position and ambition.