[Politics] Brexit

[Bold Seagull]

Arch Remainer Adonis criticised Corbyn’s leadership and policies, being a staunch Blairite. So is Adonis’s view suddenly gospel? Like everyone, he’s just someone with a biased viewpoint. We can keep passing on tweets from biased individuals, it’s gets us nowhere, except makes us feel good that a professional famous person agrees with us.

Instead, let’s hope the party leaders and MP’s in the real world can now reach an agreement on something moderate, rather than the endless round of Twatter and Facebook soundbites ... which got Trump elected.

Indeed.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Arch Remainer Adonis criticised Corbyn’s leadership and policies, being a staunch Blairite. So is Adonis’s view suddenly gospel? Like everyone, he’s just someone with a biased viewpoint. We can keep passing on tweets from biased individuals, it’s gets us nowhere, except makes us feel good that a professional famous person agrees with us.

Instead, let’s hope the party leaders and MP’s in the real world can now reach an agreement on something moderate, rather than the endless round of Twatter and Facebook soundbites ... which got Trump elected.

So you think Theresa May is going to dance hand in hand to Brussels with Jeremy, ask for an extension without taking part in any EU elections, and they are going to fall on their knees and say of course?
You've got a lot more faith in May than I have.
I posted those tweets because I can see the trap that May is laying. No deal is still very much on the cards, regardless of who actually said it.

 

[Lever]

I look at life in a way that I am happy with not what you may be happy with. I am observing not advocating which is what you so desperately want me to do. Don't you!

So no condemnation then.... and happy to 'observe' threatening words and violent acts. Just checking..........

 

[n1 gull]

Instead, let’s hope the party leaders and MP’s in the real world can now reach an agreement on something moderate, rather than the endless round of Twatter and Facebook soundbites ... which got Trump elected.

God I hope so. If Paisley and McGuinness could do a deal anything is possible. It's now time for grown ups and compromise

 

[dingodan]

What he said and what he meant are supposition. You have just agreed he said it.

Does context not matter? Does it not matter if he clearly never believed that we would stay in the Single Market, and to say so would be a lie?

You are Ok with misrepresenting someone who clearly misspoke?

FFS if someone who was clearly a remain supporter accidentally used the wrong word which implied they wanted to leave, I wouldn't be so dishonest as to hold that up as evidence that they believe something which it is absolutely clear that they don't. WTF is wrong with you people, your dishonesty in service of your own views in astounding.

Worrying times for our country when honor and decency mean absolutely nothing and are willingly sacrificed on the alter of politics..

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Does context not matter? Does it not matter if he clearly never believed that we would stay in the Single Market, and to say so would be a lie?

You are Ok with misrepresenting someone who clearly misspoke?

FFS if someone who was clearly a remain supporter accidentally used the wrong word which implied they wanted to leave, I wouldn't be so dishonest as to hold that up as evidence that they believe something which it is absolutely clear that they don't. WTF is wrong with you people, your dishonesty in service of your own views in astounding.

Worrying times for our country when honor and decency mean absolutely nothing and are willing sacrificed on the alter of politics..

I just posted the words he actually said. You said he meant something different.

 

[dingodan]

I just posted the words he actually said. You said he meant something different.

It's clear beyond any doubt that he meant something different.

But if it serves your politics, who cares, right?

Pathetic.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Good. Maybe we won't have to listen to Mark Francois on the news anymore and he crawls back under the rock he came from.

Must be a ****ing big rock.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

That'll be the PM that repeatedly said we'd be leaving on the 29th March. The MPs that repeatedly said they wouldn't back her deal, who eventually changed their minds. They are not representative of the population, or even parliament, which is why they haven't passed anything in the house of commons.

That's a few people on here who want to leave whatever the cost, and again, not representative of the population as a whole.
Which we know is nonsense.

There's not really a counter argument to that. Sure there are those that want Brexit of any flavour ahead of remain, which is of course fine, but to pretend that there are no voters who see things differently is obtuse. If some voters would choose in (for example) this order: May's deal, Remain, No Deal (and there are), then it is a fact that the variations of Leave are separate beasts.

Given what's happened over the last couple of years, it's difficult to argue that the binary referendum we had was fit for purpose.
Well that's a bit of a stretch. We don't really know without a suitable referendum.

Thanks for your response. My post was an attempt to test your opinion and, as I said, I take your point about the fairest format for a confirmatory vote. Think I will stand by my assertion that Remain has been shown to be more popular than any specific form of Brexit.

 

[Pavilionaire]

My initial reaction to May's Statement today if if the Tories are going down they want to drag Labour with them by tainting them equally with the shit Withdrawal Agreement we'll get.

I think Labour should stick to their guns here. Theresa May has lost 3 times - her WA is her work alone and it's shit. 2nd Referendum or Customs Union will soon get a majority once MPs stop abstaining, are given a free vote and start going for their second choice.

It's incredible really, the Tories have turned an internal squabble into an issue that has divided the nation for probably a generation, their toxic coalition has wiped the Lib Dems off the face of the map and now they've turned their sights on Labour. As a Lib Dem member my advice to Corbyn is simple - tell her to f*ck off and go for a Customs Union / 2nd Referendum, do NOT repeat NOT touch the Tories with a bargepole.

 

[Triggaaar]

Thanks for your response.

You're welcome. I'm not quite used to politeness in this thread.

Think I will stand by my assertion that Remain has been shown to be more popular than any specific form of Brexit.

Now that we've learned more about the sort of deal we're capable of negotiating with the EU, I suspect you're right, but I concede that is only opinion.

 

[The Rivet]

So no condemnation then.... and happy to 'observe' threatening words and violent acts. Just checking..........

Yes is the answer because I am not responsible for them.

 

[LlcoolJ]

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”

Caldwell

That is a perfect description of Boris Johnson.

 

[Baldseagull]

This is a handy useful reference.

https://twitter.com/pgmatthew/status/1054609746563682304?s=19

To be fair, (though not quite sure why I should be to most of those people) most of those clips are from before the referendum was called, and one of them is cut and is entirely misleading. However, it was this Norway or Swiss option that allowed UKIP to gain support to the levels it did, and it was their eating into the Tory vote that pushed Cameron to pledge a Referendum. I personally believe he fully intended to let that pledge go in a coalition with liberals, but then won an outright majority and was stuck with it.
Dan Hannan was saying it all through the campaign to leave though, and I am sure some people voted leave expecting that we would remain in the single market, not least those who had decided they would be voting leave as soon as the referendum was called, and did not pay much attention to the campaign.

 

[Weststander]

So you think Theresa May is going to dance hand in hand to Brussels with Jeremy, ask for an extension without taking part in any EU elections, and they are going to fall on their knees and say of course?
You've got a lot more faith in May than I have.
I posted those tweets because I can see the trap that May is laying. No deal is still very much on the cards, regardless of who actually said it.

I just hope May, Corbyn and moderate MP’s reach an agreement in principle, that is taken to the EU, who will listen I think.

Loving the Twatter soundbites of arch Remainers or Hard Brexiteers, because they agree with us, only furnishes our inflexible black and white views of the world.

5Live was interesting before 7pm. They had Corbynista Russell-Moyle bitterly referring to “She” (aka Teresa May) and in a softer tone “Jeremy”, immediately slamming all doors shut. Then, by way of total contrast, they had Stephen Kinnock and a moderate Tory MP on, talking intelligently on how this might work, in which ways May has to compromise, etc.

Kinnock and the other guy give us hope.

 

[Triggaaar]

My initial reaction to May's Statement today if if the Tories are going down they want to drag Labour with them by tainting them equally with the shit Withdrawal Agreement we'll get.

I think Labour should stick to their guns here. Theresa May has lost 3 times - her WA is her work alone and it's shit. 2nd Referendum or Customs Union will soon get a majority once MPs stop abstaining, are given a free vote and start going for their second choice.

It's incredible really, the Tories have turned an internal squabble into an issue that has divided the nation for probably a generation, their toxic coalition has wiped the Lib Dems off the face of the map and now they've turned their sights on Labour. As a Lib Dem member my advice to Corbyn is simple - tell her to f*ck off and go for a Customs Union / 2nd Referendum, do NOT repeat NOT touch the Tories with a bargepole.

I was kinda with you until you blamed the Tories for the demise of the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems have to take responsibility for their own mistakes, just as the Tories should be raking responsibility for theirs.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

My initial reaction to May's Statement today if if the Tories are going down they want to drag Labour with them by tainting them equally with the shit Withdrawal Agreement we'll get.

I think Labour should stick to their guns here. Theresa May has lost 3 times - her WA is her work alone and it's shit. 2nd Referendum or Customs Union will soon get a majority once MPs stop abstaining, are given a free vote and start going for their second choice.

It's incredible really, the Tories have turned an internal squabble into an issue that has divided the nation for probably a generation, their toxic coalition has wiped the Lib Dems off the face of the map and now they've turned their sights on Labour. As a Lib Dem member my advice to Corbyn is simple - tell her to f*ck off and go for a Customs Union / 2nd Referendum, do NOT repeat NOT touch the Tories with a bargepole.

It’s clearly a trap.

I imagine the plan is for her to have a meeting and come out saying labour will not agree on anything and try and shift the blame of no deal.

Or they agree to pass the deal and when it’s a complete mess blame labour as well.

 

[The Rivet]

That is a perfect description of Boris Johnson.

and Nick Boles, can work both ways that quote. Clever isn't it, fits both sides view....

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Can a Tory back bencher put in a no confidence motion against the government ?

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's clear beyond any doubt that he meant something different.

But if it serves your politics, who cares, right?

Pathetic.

I would have thought, as a general rule, if you want to be a successful politician and persuade people that what you are saying is correct, don't day one thing and then get others to claim you meant something entirely different

(Just as a general rule for politicians)