[Politics] Brexit

[Lincoln Imp]

we wouldn't have been given a referendum in the first place

Thatcher certainly wouldn't have given us a referendum. She regarded them as enemies of democracy, one of the few views she shared with Clement Attlee. Hitler, on the other hand, was terrifically keen.

 

[crodonilson]

I don’t think anything sums up the nations current mood on Brexit better than this.

[tweet]1109407172537081856[/tweet]

There’s no better deal than what we’ve got now.

 

[Mtoto]

Exactly what makes it not support jobs, and exactly how does it **** up the economy? Is it not still free trade?

No, it's not. It's negotiated free trade, which is a very different thing to the automatic, frictionless trade you get as as a member of the single market. The terms will be, inevitably, significantly worse than we enjoy at the moment because the combined economies of the single-market countries are around 6 or 7 times bigger than us. We will say: we want to sell you this. And they will say: sure, but only if *we* sell you this. And the balance, every time, will be in their favour because a. they've got the economic clout and know exactly how to make it count and b. they're a whole lot better at negotiating in any case, as they do it all the time.

We voted to make ourselves much smaller and weaker in relative terms and we need them much more than they need us. Even if May's deal gets through, the next two years will be the really grisly bit as farming, fishing and the rest get sold out one by one. But hey, it's the "will of the people" so there surely won't be any complaints?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If you mean would I accept a version of joining that wasn't really full joining like not paying the full amount of dues, not taking the currency or being bound by EU monetary policy, have our own regulators for banking, not being part of Schengen area, getting an opt out of the working time directive, choose whether or not to participate in new EU measures in Justice and Home affairs?

I reckon I could live with that.

If the people that were marching were asking for another vote because the join proposition was mostly lies and half truths, and the campaigners broke the law, and the electoral register did not include some of the most affected UK citizens and UK residents, and significant amounts of foreign money and influence had been used, and we were not yet in but would lose forever the option to remain out on the same terms, and the result would have been reversed with just a few hundred thousand of 34 million voters had voted the other way, and it became clear that the only joining version that would pass through Parliament was a worse proposition than the status quo, I think in the interests of democracy, in the interests of retaining existing benefits that would otherwise be lost forever and in the interests of the country I would march with them.

Assume leaving the customs union and the single market was a categorical promise and fundamental part of Leave, it wasn't but it was strongly suggested. Now you are in charge of making that happen, but you are also responsible for maintaining the UK's responsibilities and commitments in regards to treaties with the world and holding the Union of the UK together, responsible for the economy of the UK and the welfare of it's citizens, now add in that your political party is totally split over the issue of remaining and leaving, and you are responsible for holding that Party together too. To get a majority in the house you need the support of 10 MP's from a part of the UK that is particularly affected by whether we are in or out of the customs union and single market, because it has a land border with the EU, they want to leave the EU but very much want to remain in the UK, and have connections to terrorist groups.
Tell me how you, would navigate that lot, retain peace, hold your party together, hold the country together and get out of the customs union?
You are just going to have to face up to it that it was and is a bad proposition, looking worse the more it is examined, and that remainers are not saboteurs, they are most probably the majority today and that there is no good case to be made for proceeding to leave other than the 2016 referendum result which has many problems with legitimacy in itself.

No, I meant Eurosceptics cobbling together a deal that completely undermined the main reasons for joining which is the direct comparison to what many remainers are arguing for now. Like the EU would let us join with a 'have your cake and eat' it opt out membership ….

Back to reality, the people marching can't quite come to terms with democractic first principles (results of elections get enacted when they meet the neccassery criteria as you would expect if you had won). Of course they will find all sorts of conspiracies to attempt to justify their sense of entitlement. The other side lied – but so did our side … electoral law was broken to no desernable effect as it has been before with no re run … the criteria on who can vote is never a real issue until you lose ... funding, you have a big advantage from all sorts of sources … foreign influence, like Obama 'back of the queue' and the European , global elite all weighing in behind remain. If's and but's … remain had the big spending advantage, the government machine behind them , 'experts galore', the UK , european and global elites all in your corner and they f'd it up.

That assumes I would have called an election in the middle of negotating our exit and if I had I would have thrown away a huge poll lead and my majority against a far left numpty therefore becoming reliant on the DUP. But you are right if I were a remainer trying to enact Brexit which I didn't really believe in, with a minority government who mainly voted remain relying on the DUP in a Remain MP dominated parliament it was probably doomed to fail. Not so much a bad proposition just parliament not really willing to enact the will of the people and bad parliamentary arithmetic.

 

[WATFORD zero]

No, I meant Eurosceptics cobbling together a deal that completely undermined the main reasons for joining which is the direct comparison to what many remainers are arguing for now. Like the EU would let us join with a 'have your cake and eat' it opt out membership ….

Back to reality, the people marching can't quite come to terms with democractic first principles (results of elections get enacted when they meet the neccassery criteria as you would expect if you had won). Of course they will find all sorts of conspiracies to attempt to justify their sense of entitlement. The other side lied – but so did our side … electoral law was broken to no desernable effect as it has been before with no re run … the criteria on who can vote is never a real issue until you lose ... funding, you have a big advantage from all sorts of sources … foreign influence, like Obama 'back of the queue' and the European , global elite all weighing in behind remain. If's and but's … remain had the big spending advantage, the government machine behind them , 'experts galore', the UK , european and global elites all in your corner and they f'd it up.

That assumes I would have called an election in the middle of negotating our exit and if I had I would have thrown away a huge poll lead and my majority against a far left numpty therefore becoming reliant on the DUP. But you are right if I were a remainer trying to enact Brexit which I didn't really believe in, with a minority government who mainly voted remain relying on the DUP in a Remain MP dominated parliament it was probably doomed to fail. Not so much a bad proposition just parliament not really willing to enact the will of the people and bad parliamentary arithmetic.

So which are you backing, customs union or hard border?

We've had some honest answers this afternoon, but I have a funny feeling that you will waffle and avoid a simple question

If you are not going to answer, don't bother. I think everyone from both sides has had enough of waffle and bollocks.

 

[Triggaaar]

But Trig, we have not even started to negotiate whether we will be in or out of the customs union or any alternative trade deal with the EU. (We are currently arguing about staying in the customs union for another 2 years until we can find the magic answer that means no customs union and no Irish border - You know the same magic answer we have been looking for the last 3 years )

So although as you say 'With May's deal, there won't (as far as we know) be any tariffs on our exports'

It's also equally accurate to say 'With May's deal, there will (as far as we know) be tariffs on our exports'

because, until we get to the end of the next part of the negotiations (if indeed, we ever get to the start of it), no one knows

Indeed, which is why I don't agree with the assertion that her deal will **** up the economy. To keep border-less trade in Ireland, it's likely we'd be in the customs union and have free trade.

That's not to say it's a good deal, because it would probably just end up as a worse version of what we have now.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

So which are you backing, customs union or hard border?

We've had some honest answers this afternoon, but I have a funny feeling that you will waffle and avoid a simple question

If you are not going to answer, don't bother. I think everyone from both sides has had enough of waffle and bollocks.

Neither, something more like the EU no deal preparations for the NI border as set out by Barnier some time ago “If we’re facing a no deal…we’ll have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border.” and “my team have worked hard to study how controls can be made paperless or decentralised, which will be useful in all circumstances,” Obviously when the UK side suggested this as a solution it was dismissed as magical thinking/ unicorn etc

Best you stop posting then

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Looks like the 'Peoples' Waitrose March organisers had Donald Trump counting crowd size on Saturday ..

https://fullfact.org/europe/peoples-vote-march-count/

 

[WATFORD zero]

Neither, something more like the EU no deal preparations for the NI border as set out by Barnier some time ago “If we’re facing a no deal…we’ll have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border.” and “my team have worked hard to study how controls can be made paperless or decentralised, which will be useful in all circumstances,” Obviously when the UK side suggested this as a solution it was dismissed as magical thinking/ unicorn etc

Best you stop posting then

Waffle, well I never expected that

 

[vegster]

Tory party Whipping AGAINST Letwin's amendment, this could be messy and might show an even bigger split in the Tory party.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Waffle, well I never expected that

The EU's Chief negotiator answers are 'waffle' ?

 

[portlock seagull]

Is it over yet...?

 

[The Clamp]

Hard to fathom that any decent person is still supporting Leave.

Oh. They’re not.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I don’t think anything sums up the nations current mood on Brexit better than this.

[tweet]1109407172537081856[/tweet]

That is the saddest things I’ve seen in a long time and is possibly one of the better reasons to support Brexit

 

[portlock seagull]

Over 80 THOUSAND posts all believing they’re right and why / what’s going to happen...except even the government with just a few hours to go doesn’t know!

This thread should be binned and started from scratch again because it’s ALL bollocks. No one knows.

 

[Weststander]

Hard to fathom that any decent person is still supporting Leave.

Oh. They’re not.

A genuine question (no angle), where do you see our relationship with/in the EU, when this period of uncertainty is finally 100% concluded?

 

[WATFORD zero]

The EU's Chief negotiator answers are 'waffle' ?

Customs union or hard border (same as for the last 3 years)?

Cue waffle again

 

[portlock seagull]

A genuine question (no angle), where do you see our relationship with/in the EU, when this period of uncertainty is finally 100% concluded?

Have a look at the recent BBC webpage ‘what other countries think’ piece, it’s quite good. Apparently laughs will be down 70% after we leave (zeee famous English sense of humour!) and France / Germany will have to find someone else to blame for everything which means they’ll have to come up with some other excuses for all the problems - which should be interesting!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Customs union or hard border (same as for the last 3 years)?

Cue waffle again

The EU's no deal preparations don't involve a customs union or a hard border ...

 

[WATFORD zero]

The EU's no deal preparations don't involve a customs union or a hard border ...

Didn’t expect that waffle at all