[Politics] Brexit

[SussexSeahawk]

I clicked "wouldn't vote", but that's really as I'd be torn. I voted remain but am a firm believer in democracy and don't feel the vote could be leave or remain as we've already agreed and voted to leave.

Have we agreed though? Over 50% of people who voted said they wanted to leave the EU in some form. If anything has been made clear over the last 2.5 years is that there is no single 'Brexit' that has over 50% of support.

The idea that it would be an affront to democracy is a sham: any brexit for the sake of it, despite people not wanting it is about the furthest thing from democratic. If we were to have a '2nd referendum', it wouldn't be a 're-do' it would be a clear choice between the exact type of brexit we would be getting and remaining in the EU.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I don’t like her, I’m not defending her and I don’t rate her. .
My point is that while Jeremy Corbyn would tell you she has made a mess of the Brexit negotiations, The fact is no pm would have stood any chance of making a perceived success of resolving the referendum result.

I think Johnson or Davis would have got something agreed by the leavers. I would have looked virtually identical to the current deal, but as negotiated by a leaver would have carried more weight on the right.

At the moment we have remainers voting to leave and leavers voting against, all very strange

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Have we agreed though? Over 50% of people who voted said they wanted to leave the EU in some form. If anything has been made clear over the last 2.5 years is that there is no single 'Brexit' that has over 50% of support.

The idea that it would be an affront to democracy is a sham: any brexit for the sake of it, despite people not wanting it is about the furthest thing from democratic. If we were to have a '2nd referendum', it wouldn't be a 're-do' it would be a clear choice between the exact type of brexit we would be getting and remaining in the EU.

I voted REMAIN, but there was a majority that voted to leave, you can't then ask the same question again. You can say, OK, we voted to leave and now how do we do that, but you can't say "let's have another go, and see if we get what we want this time".

 

[nicko31]

Have we agreed though? Over 50% of people who voted said they wanted to leave the EU in some form. If anything has been made clear over the last 2.5 years is that there is no single 'Brexit' that has over 50% of support.

The idea that it would be an affront to democracy is a sham: any brexit for the sake of it, despite people not wanting it is about the furthest thing from democratic. If we were to have a '2nd referendum', it wouldn't be a 're-do' it would be a clear choice between the exact type of brexit we would be getting and remaining in the EU.

2nd ref. should be proper vote. A vote on something tangible, not based on lies and blind hope. Vote on May's deal, that is what Brexit is and is what can be safely delivered without completely destroying us. Or keep what we have, these are the hard choices....

 

[PoG]

Remain again for me please.

 

[A1X]

This is the amendment on the Government motion to look out for today that will rule out no deal entirely:

[tweet]1105733909873156096[/tweet]

Nick Watt on Newsnight last night thought it would pass:

[tweet]1105600499691085824[/tweet]

I guess if it happens it'll be MV3 and see if the ERG and DUP suddenly love the WA.

The thing is No Deal cannot be ruled out unless there is a legally binding element to it, such as perhaps a "backstop" to say if no deal agreed by midday on 29th March and no extension then the Government is legally bound to revoke A50. Just saying "we don't want No Deal" doesn't actually stop No Deal.

 

[A1X]

Simple question for debate;

If No Deal loses by a BIG margin tonight, is Brexit over?

Not necessarily. Without a legal recourse No Deal remains the default, and if A50 is extended we're right back where we are now at the end of May / June / 2021 / the heat death of the universe. Plus there is still scope for a much softer Brexit (e.g. Norway Plus).

 

[GT49er]

Leave. I feel even more anti-EU now than I did at the time of the referendum.

Don't we all! I think the MPs might be surprised, if they are despicable enough to try for another referendum, that many people will have seen how desperately the EU has tried to keep us in their clutches and feel even more that it's time to leave now before it really is too late. Many more will be so sickened by the anti-democratic antics of MPs who have tried every which way to foul up the negotiations that even though they voted remain before they will vote leave if asked again, simply because of their respect for democracy.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I clicked "wouldn't vote", but that's really as I'd be torn. I voted remain but am a firm believer in democracy and don't feel the vote could be leave or remain as we've already agreed and voted to leave.

In my constituency the Tory wins over and over and over again, even though I never vote for them. However I have never once sat down and said 'I'm a believer in democracy, clearly the other people in my constituency have agreed they want the Tory, therefore I will abstain'.

People can always be convinced by new arguments, can always change their mind - that won't be possible once we've left so we should have the vote first!

Further to that, any second vote would clearly be a ratification vote, not just a do-over of the first referendum - nor should it be just a re-run.

 

[Mellotron]

No, not over.

We go to a vote on extension - which may or may not be allowed.

And even if not allowed, May can still bring a 3rd vote on her deal - and perhaps pitch it as her deal v No Brexit.

I’m aware of those two elements - my question is whether people think the path is set for No Brexit if No Deal is destroyed this evening. I think it will change the course of discussion.

 

[ManOfSussex]

The thing is No Deal cannot be ruled out unless there is a legally binding element to it, such as perhaps a "backstop" to say if no deal agreed by midday on 29th March and no extension then the Government is legally bound to revoke A50. Just saying "we don't want No Deal" doesn't actually stop No Deal.

I think she'll frame it as ultimately being those 2 choices as to where we're heading. Irrespective of the logistical/practical difficulties and The GFA being ripped up and the fact we won't last long, no deal requires further legislation to be passed for us to function. Good luck trying to anyone trying to get all that through amongst that chaos. It's an absolute mess and the WA is the easiest option to take by far.

 

[Kent Seagull]

Is the EU hampering our departure? or are we just constantly messing it up.
People might talk about the "bully boys" of Europe, but the EU has the other remaining members to worry about and look after.
We are choosing to leave. Your own attitude expressed here seems to suggest you can't wait. Why should they do us any favours?
I think we will find that the German car-makers et al will cope with a reduction in sales to the UK if that happens, because they perceive it makes more sense to keep the rest of the European Union together. They will take the hit for the sake of the greater good...…… which the UK seems incapable of doing.

And it is not unelected bureaucrats who impose the rules in Europe. They are VOTED ON in the European Parliament, where we have always had DULY ELECTED MEPs. You've been listening to Farage too much.

Absolutely agree. It's the UK that is leaving, only a fool would think the EU would do anything other than look after the interests of member countries. For the life of me I can't understand why working and middle class people would want to leave the organisation that has protected workers rights and made our lives safer and more secure.

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Deleted.

Actually. On reflection, I can’t be arsed to waste my time with this.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I voted REMAIN, but there was a majority that voted to leave, you can't then ask the same question again. You can say, OK, we voted to leave and now how do we do that, but you can't say "let's have another go, and see if we get what we want this time".

I would argue it is not the same question again, in terms of we ACTUALLY have some knowledge now as we certainly didn't before. Surely an educated vote is better than a non-educated vote? For example, I don't remember Northern Ireland's border being a MASSIVE issue AT ALL during the debates/build up to the vote.

 

[A1X]

I think she'll frame it as ultimately being those 2 choices as to where we're heading. Irrespective of the logistical/practical difficulties and The GFA being ripped up and the fact we won't last long, no deal requires further legislation to be passed for us to function. Good luck trying to anyone trying to get all that through amongst that chaos. It's an absolute mess and the WA is the easiest option to take by far.

I would argue that actually revoking is technically easier as even the WA requires further legislation (and as such even if it had passed last night an extension was probably inevitable) but I do get your point, in terms of difficult the WA is much easier than No Deal.

 

[BigGully]

From 11/2/18.

I think I called most of this right.

Jeeeez you're serious aren't you .....................

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Just watching the MEP's debate from Strasbourg, the mood seems to be one of deep exasperation with UK parliament. They really don't seem in any mood to offer a time extension.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

In my constituency the Tory wins over and over and over again, even though I never vote for them. However I have never once sat down and said 'I'm a believer in democracy, clearly the other people in my constituency have agreed they want the Tory, therefore I will abstain'.

People can always be convinced by new arguments, can always change their mind - that won't be possible once we've left so we should have the vote first!

Further to that, any second vote would clearly be a ratification vote, not just a do-over of the first referendum - nor should it be just a re-run.

A large part of this statement is a clear demonstration of why we also need to re-visit the PR debate!

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

I would argue it is not the same question again, in terms of we ACTUALLY have some knowledge now as we certainly didn't before. Surely an educated vote is better than a non-educated vote? For example, I don't remember Northern Ireland's border being a MASSIVE issue AT ALL during the debates/build up to the vote.

Fair comment, and can't disagree with that.

 

[A1X]

"I voted out because of the terrible way the EU treated Greece"

IMF: Greece among best performers in eurozone

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47547065