[Politics] Brexit

[Kinky Gerbil]

Bill Cash seriously needs to calm down.

It’s not safe to be that Gammony at his age.

 

[Marshy]

A second vote is needed, apart from anything else, because the first has been PROVEN to be 'undemocratic' - illegal funding, votes won by pure lies, postal votes delayed, eligible voters denied their say. You'd vote against the outcome you wanted, on a point of principle - to uphold the result of that?

That would be ridiculous, frankly.

Are all elections etc not won on all those things sadly... at least this vote was completed by 80% of the country ? an incredible turn out and far more worthy a result than a general election for example where we don't get anything like that sort of turn out.

I believe a 2nd vote would result in a huge leave vote, if the peoples vote isn't upheld it will piss so many people off like me.

A vote to uphold democracy isn't ridiculous for me.. people fought for the right to vote, not too have a vote ignored because MPs didnt like the result.

Mrs May is right on this … a 2nd vote would destroy what little remaining faith the country has in politicians and politics.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

How would a vote for Remain, via a (second) democratic referendum, be in any way 'via the backdoor'?

Argue all you like about the 'will of the people', and all that. Argue against holding a second referendum - valid. But to suggest that a vote for Remain in a second free vote is somehow deceitful is stupid. As has been asked around 400 times on this thread already - How can a free public vote be 'undemocratic'?

I didn't use the words 'deceitful' or 'undemocratic' did I ? In my opinion it would feel like 'you got the wrong answer first time so try again' .... I'm sorry but that's how it would feel to me. I went to the effort of voting in the first referendum and 17m plus people agreed with my choice. Now all of a sudden my previous vote was worthless, ignored ..... along with the votes of those other 17m people.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It can't be the same question.

May's deal YES or NO, of that's a NO then Remain or No Deal.

Much fairer than a Norway deal by the back door. If Britain really wants to destroy itself, let them vote for it. But right now, no one voted for no deal and May's deal will never fly..

No one voted for no customs union, no single market Brexit either. No one voted on how we were going to leave, what our relationship would look like. We have entrenched positions none of us voted for.

Of the 52% there will be many within that who did expect a Customs Union, or Single Market, or Norway style deal. There will be those that wanted a hard no deal. There will be those who's only issue was sovereignty. Politicians have shaped what Brexit should or shouldn't be. The PEOPLE only voted to leave. That was the only advice they gave, not how. Too many politicians and commentators forgetting that.

 

[GOM]

March 29th, don't know if anyone has mentioned that yet ? I believe that has been announced as the leaving date.

 

[nicko31]

Bill Cash seriously needs to calm down.

It’s not safe to be that Gammony at his age.

Blaming austerity on the EU, nothing to do with the Tories. When are the ERG finally going to do some research?

 

[ManOfSussex]

Bill Cash seriously needs to calm down.

It’s not safe to be that Gammony at his age.

Is he getting really angry about things then? That's a good sign if he is.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Are all elections etc not won on all those things sadly... at least this vote was completed by 80% of the country ? an incredible turn out and far more worthy a result than a general election for example where we don't get anything like that sort of turn out.

I believe a 2nd vote would result in a huge leave vote, if the peoples vote isn't upheld it will piss so many people off like me.

A vote to uphold democracy isn't ridiculous for me.. people fought for the right to vote, not too have a vote ignored because MPs didnt like the result.

Mrs May is right on this … a 2nd vote would destroy what little remaining faith the country has in politicians and politics.

Indeed. The clamour for a 2nd chance shows the lengths people will go to in order to remain part of the gang. Loss of faith in the democratic system, the future ruined for our children with a reliable cornerstone of our society smashed forever.

 

[pb21]

Part one was covered in the referendum...Leave/Stay.

Part two would be a logical move forward based upon the result of Part one. A chain of events if you like.

But part one was fundamentally flawed. It would not be democratic for part two to follow on from this, and you are still asking half of people to choose between two things they don't want, not very democratic IMO.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Is he getting really angry? That's a good sign if he is.

He’s also basically admitting the whole leave campaign was a lie.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Fighting a 'COULD' case?

Hope it's pro bono.

They are challenging a section of the Data Protection Act 2018 that contains a new exemption permitting Home Office “data controllers” to restrict access to personal data if it would be likely to prejudice “effective immigration control”.

Mr Justice Ouseley granted permission for a full hearing of the judicial review application. It will be heard at a later date.

The judge thinks it is worth having a judicial review.

 

[Is it PotG?]

But part one was fundamentally flawed. It would not be democratic for part two to follow on from this, and you are still asking half of people to choose between two things they don't want, not very democratic IMO.

Probably old ground, but how is Leave/Stay 'fundamentally flawed'?

Furthermore, why wasn't this issue raised at the time, when the remainers thought they were backing Usain Bolt against an asthmatic ant carrying heavy shopping?

 

[Bold Seagull]

I didn't use the words 'deceitful' or 'undemocratic' did I ? In my opinion it would feel like 'you got the wrong answer first time so try again' .... I'm sorry but that's how it would feel to me. I went to the effort of voting in the first referendum and 17m plus people agreed with my choice. Now all of a sudden my previous vote was worthless, ignored ..... along with the votes of those other 17m people.

17m (67%) voted to join back in 1975. Their precious vote is worthless now too?

What did you and 17m people vote for; leave with a customs union and single market membership? leave without those but a backstop because the NI issue cannot be resolved? No deal? I'd love to know because 17m voted to leave, but the choices on how you leave are gigantic. Who gets to say how? You didn't say how in the referendum and neither did I. How many Leave voters voted leave, but on the assumption of a customs deal and would be aghast to be leaving without a deal?

 

[Gwylan]

Part one was covered in the referendum...Leave/Stay.

Part two would be a logical move forward based upon the result of Part one. A chain of events if you like.

I didn't use the words 'deceitful' or 'undemocratic' did I ? In my opinion it would feel like 'you got the wrong answer first time so try again' .... I'm sorry but that's how it would feel to me. I went to the effort of voting in the first referendum and 17m plus people agreed with my choice. Now all of a sudden my previous vote was worthless, ignored ..... along with the votes of those other 17m people.

It makes more sense to have only Leave options on a second referendum but there is one difficulty with that. If 50% of the electorate feel disenfranchised by that and don't vote, it's possible that a decision could be made by just 12 to 15% of the electorate: I think that any government would have a hard time to justify act according to the 'will of the people' in such circumstances.

But, if another referendum did include a Remain option, it could win by default if Leave votes are split two or three ways.

What a mess.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Are all elections etc not won on all those things sadly... at least this vote was completed by 80% of the country ? an incredible turn out and far more worthy a result than a general election for example where we don't get anything like that sort of turn out.

I believe a 2nd vote would result in a huge leave vote, if the peoples vote isn't upheld it will piss so many people off like me.

A vote to uphold democracy isn't ridiculous for me.. people fought for the right to vote, not too have a vote ignored because MPs didnt like the result.

Mrs May is right on this … a 2nd vote would destroy what little remaining faith the country has in politicians and politics.

72% of the electorate turned out which is not 80% of the country when you consider children, those in hospital, in prisons and elderly in care who didn't vote at all.

The referendum was corrupt, by breaking electoral law. The National Crime Agency are investigating.
If Leave are so strong why are they so against a second vote? Surely they'll win again and with a bigger majority, won't they?
Or will they?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Cooper and Benn emerge after long meeting with David Lidington - absolutely adamant that PM has to take no deal off the table before there can be any compromise - they say also that Lidington did not mention any new ideas or ways forward

 

[Westdene Seagull]

17m (67%) voted to join back in 1975. Their precious vote is worthless now too?

What did you and 17m people vote for; leave with a customs union and single market membership? leave without those but a backstop because the NI issue cannot be resolved? No deal? I'd love to know because 17m voted to leave, but the choices on how you leave are gigantic. Who gets to say how? You didn't say how in the referendum and neither did I. How many Leave voters voted leave, but on the assumption of a customs deal and would be aghast to be leaving without a deal?

Hence if there is a second referendum it should contain only the leave options.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Are all elections etc not won on all those things sadly... at least this vote was completed by 80% of the country ? an incredible turn out and far more worthy a result than a general election for example where we don't get anything like that sort of turn out.

I believe a 2nd vote would result in a huge leave vote, if the peoples vote isn't upheld it will piss so many people off like me.

A vote to uphold democracy isn't ridiculous for me.. people fought for the right to vote, not too have a vote ignored because MPs didnt like the result.

Mrs May is right on this … a 2nd vote would destroy what little remaining faith the country has in politicians and politics.

Indeed. The clamour for a 2nd chance shows the lengths people will go to in order to remain part of the gang. Loss of faith in the democratic system, the future ruined for our children with a reliable cornerstone of our society smashed forever.

What I'd want to vote on is the kind of Brexit. Was the first result for a Brexit without customs union or single market, or is there a majority that want to leave, but want to leave with as little fuss / disruption as possible.

The problem with the binary result of 2 choices, is that the choice we went for was anything but binary, it is down the rabbit hole in its own right. How we leave has been appropriated by politicians and various groups; it means this, it means that. It meant none of those things, and all of those things. How do you answer whether, as an example, a customs union is what the people wanted in their leave deal or not? None of us can answer, it wasn't the question.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

A second vote is needed, apart from anything else, because the first has been PROVEN to be 'undemocratic' - illegal funding, votes won by pure lies, postal votes delayed, eligible voters denied their say. You'd vote against the outcome you wanted, on a point of principle - to uphold the result of that?

That would be ridiculous, frankly.

Just out of interest who are the eligible voters denied their say?

 

[dibsy]

Surely the problem with a second referendum is that we still don't really know anything for definite yet.

The only thing May has negotiated in these wasted years since the referendum is a transition agreement. The actual future trading arrangements and everything else that yet needs to be decided hasn't been decided. So we will in fact be having another referendum basing our decision on predictions.

Granted we are more informed about the EU and all the stuff it does and the difficulties of leaving but we still won't know what the actual outcome of the negotiation will be, or what impact that will have and ultimately what we are voting for or against other than the principle.

People say the referendum should be based on Mays deal or leave/stay, but May hasn't got a deal. She has managed to negotiate a transition period. Whoopee