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[Politics] Brexit
- Thread starter KingstonSeagull
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Weststander
Well-known member
You and I voted Remain, but aware from our pro Remain and relatively wealthy part of the UK, why should our 'superior' take on things override the majority, as well as the leaderships of the two main parties?
The arrogance of sections of society in London and the SE, is part of the reason we ended up here. Much of the rest of the UK felt ignored.
Weststander
Well-known member
That's why many of them couldn't trust him.
He made loads of enemies by stabbing variously Cameron, Gove and May in the back, as well as being a remainer who became a brexiteer.
More tacking than Ben Ainslee.
You are hereHome > Britain > Faithless, craven and cowardly – the British government’s Brexit betrayal
Brexit Britain
FAITHLESS, CRAVEN AND COWARDLY – THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT’S BREXIT BETRAYAL
JULY 8, 2018 MELANIE BREXIT, EU, REMAINERS, THERESA
We don’t yet know whether Brexiteers in the Conservative party will seek to bring down the Prime Minister Theresa May over the UK negotiating position that she forced through Cabinet on Friday.
We don’t yet know whether the EU will accept her “compromise” package or will reject it with the contempt they have shown until now at any suggestion of a “pick and mix” approach to the EU’s customs union and rules.
But what we can say with near-certainty is that what Mrs May has done is put in serious doubt a Conservative victory at the next general election – and maybe at any further general election for a long time after that.
For she and her cowardly and faithless colleagues have betrayed Brexit voters, betrayed democracy and betrayed the British people.
In voting as they did on June 23 2016 to leave the EU, the British people made a solemn declaration of belief in the value of democratic sovereignty, national self-government and Britain regaining the power to decide its own laws, to conduct its own trade deals in the best interests of the country, and to rule itself once again with its own policies passed by its own parliament as the independent nation it once was.
Ever since that historic vote the Remainers – who by definition do not value democratic self-government and national sovereignty which they are all too happy to see subsumed under EU control – have sought every means possible to undermine and reverse the Brexit vote.
On Friday, they succeeded. This was a Remainer coup. Mrs May is insisting that her package would deliver Brexit. This is false.
It would leave the UK tied to a number of EU policies and thus unable to make policy in such areas for itself; it would destroy the UK’s ability to negotiate trade deals in the best interests of the nation; it would leave the UK still to some extent under the thumb of the European Court of Justice. Thus the UK would remain deprived of national sovereignty and the power to govern itself as an independent nation.
Moreover, Mrs May’s package would leave the UK in a worse position even than as a member of the EU. For under her terms, the UK would be bound by a number of EU rules and policies but with no say over them at all.
(Indeed, some Remainers fantasise that engineering just an outcome would fuel pressure for a second referendum and a vote to stay in – ignoring the fact that there can be no return to the status quo ante, since the triumphant EU would insist that, in order to remain, the bloodied UK would have to abolish the pound and join the Euro.)
Does Mrs May understand this? Is she Machiavelli in kitten heels – or is she just too narrow-minded, too incapable of grasping any big idea other than the survival of her government, too personally defensive, too psychologically clenched against viewpoints that challenge her own to be remotely competent?
The idea that problems such as the Northern Ireland border are otherwise simply insuperable is absurd. The fact remains that Britain held – and still holds – the major card in its own hands. The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU.
That doesn’t mean there are no downsides from leaving: of course there are.
But a real leader would have said to the country something like this: “Look, there are going to be hiccups and problems and we may well have to bite on a few painful bullets. But the upside is that, overall, our economic future is very bright indeed if we make the cleanest possible break; and politically, we will once again be independent and in charge of our own laws and destiny. And for that most precious of all gifts we will pay a price if we have to, just as this country has always buckled down and paid a price for liberty – which is really what Britain is fundamentally all about”.
And to the EU, such a real leader would have said something like this: “The people of Britain have spoken and we are now leaving you. We will not seek a deal; we will take our chances with WTO rules and tariffs because even with all that we’ll still take you to the economic cleaners; but if you would like to offer us a deal, you’ll find our door is always open because we’ll always be your friends. Good bye!”
In the event, Mrs May’s negotiating position was beyond risible. She dismissed the innate strength of her country relative to the EU economic and political basket-case and instead – incredibly – approached the (possibly terminally) stricken Brussels behemoth as a nervous supplicant. Unsurprisingly, the EU promptly punched Britain in the solar plexus and is now preparing to kick it in the head.
As for the Brexiteers in Cabinet, they have all been revealed as beyond pathetic. According to media reports, as Friday’s marathon meeting wore on – after a brief, flailing and juvenile eruption by Boris Johnson – they all ended up supporting this appalling travesty.
It is hard to avoid the conclusion that they were all measuring their leadership ambitions against each other and so collectively were unable to present a united front. It was self-interest first, national interest last. Not one of them has resigned. “Friends” of Boris Johnson say he can do more to fight for Brexit by staying within Cabinet. Really? He has now put his name to Brexit’s betrayal. He will not be forgiven.
All these people have now shown themselves unworthy of leading their party.
They do not deserve to be in office; the Conservative party no longer deserves to be in government.
People are rightly worried that Jeremy Corbyn, Labour’s far-left leader, may become Prime Minister. That fear has helped Mrs May fight off any possible challengers. Jeremy Corbyn has been her human shield.
But here’s the thing. If the choice is to be between Mrs May’s Brexit betrayal and a Corbyn government, many may well now be thinking they’d either actually prefer Corbyn, who at least remains personally hostile to UK membership of the EU – or far more lethally, that there’s no longer much point in trying to stop him.
Because if Britain really is to remain tied to the EU, the UK parliament will increasingly become no more significant than Westminster regional council within the Brussels empire. So who cares if Corbyn becomes Prime Minister, this thinking would go, since the EU won’t let him do half of what he wants to do anyway?
And that’s the worst danger of all from this debacle: that the British people will simply lose faith not just in the wretched Conservative party but in the democratic process which will become increasingly meaningless.
That said, this thing is far from over; indeed, it may have only just begun. For if the EU sticks to its previous intransigence, it will reject the British government’s offer and insist that it makes further concessions to the EU’s rules which even Mrs May dare not make.
Which means, prepare now for “no deal”. Which Britain should have done right from the start.
But however this finally ends, Mrs May and her craven colleagues have done real damage – to themselves as politicians, to the Conservative party and to democracy itself
Below is dear old Melanie’s latest tweet.
I’ve said it before: draft Farage. Sack May, give Farage a peerage, make him party leader and PM – at least until UK really does properly leave the EU.
Too fanciful? Desperate times need desperate measures; public faith in democratic process now in danger
Marvellous , the certifiably bonkers Melanie Phillips take on things.
Brexit Britain
FAITHLESS, CRAVEN AND COWARDLY – THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT’S BREXIT BETRAYAL
JULY 8, 2018 MELANIE BREXIT, EU, REMAINERS, THERESA
We don’t yet know whether Brexiteers in the Conservative party will seek to bring down the Prime Minister Theresa May over the UK negotiating position that she forced through Cabinet on Friday.
We don’t yet know whether the EU will accept her “compromise” package or will reject it with the contempt they have shown until now at any suggestion of a “pick and mix” approach to the EU’s customs union and rules.
But what we can say with near-certainty is that what Mrs May has done is put in serious doubt a Conservative victory at the next general election – and maybe at any further general election for a long time after that.
For she and her cowardly and faithless colleagues have betrayed Brexit voters, betrayed democracy and betrayed the British people.
In voting as they did on June 23 2016 to leave the EU, the British people made a solemn declaration of belief in the value of democratic sovereignty, national self-government and Britain regaining the power to decide its own laws, to conduct its own trade deals in the best interests of the country, and to rule itself once again with its own policies passed by its own parliament as the independent nation it once was.
Ever since that historic vote the Remainers – who by definition do not value democratic self-government and national sovereignty which they are all too happy to see subsumed under EU control – have sought every means possible to undermine and reverse the Brexit vote.
On Friday, they succeeded. This was a Remainer coup. Mrs May is insisting that her package would deliver Brexit. This is false.
It would leave the UK tied to a number of EU policies and thus unable to make policy in such areas for itself; it would destroy the UK’s ability to negotiate trade deals in the best interests of the nation; it would leave the UK still to some extent under the thumb of the European Court of Justice. Thus the UK would remain deprived of national sovereignty and the power to govern itself as an independent nation.
Moreover, Mrs May’s package would leave the UK in a worse position even than as a member of the EU. For under her terms, the UK would be bound by a number of EU rules and policies but with no say over them at all.
(Indeed, some Remainers fantasise that engineering just an outcome would fuel pressure for a second referendum and a vote to stay in – ignoring the fact that there can be no return to the status quo ante, since the triumphant EU would insist that, in order to remain, the bloodied UK would have to abolish the pound and join the Euro.)
Does Mrs May understand this? Is she Machiavelli in kitten heels – or is she just too narrow-minded, too incapable of grasping any big idea other than the survival of her government, too personally defensive, too psychologically clenched against viewpoints that challenge her own to be remotely competent?
The idea that problems such as the Northern Ireland border are otherwise simply insuperable is absurd. The fact remains that Britain held – and still holds – the major card in its own hands. The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU.
That doesn’t mean there are no downsides from leaving: of course there are.
But a real leader would have said to the country something like this: “Look, there are going to be hiccups and problems and we may well have to bite on a few painful bullets. But the upside is that, overall, our economic future is very bright indeed if we make the cleanest possible break; and politically, we will once again be independent and in charge of our own laws and destiny. And for that most precious of all gifts we will pay a price if we have to, just as this country has always buckled down and paid a price for liberty – which is really what Britain is fundamentally all about”.
And to the EU, such a real leader would have said something like this: “The people of Britain have spoken and we are now leaving you. We will not seek a deal; we will take our chances with WTO rules and tariffs because even with all that we’ll still take you to the economic cleaners; but if you would like to offer us a deal, you’ll find our door is always open because we’ll always be your friends. Good bye!”
In the event, Mrs May’s negotiating position was beyond risible. She dismissed the innate strength of her country relative to the EU economic and political basket-case and instead – incredibly – approached the (possibly terminally) stricken Brussels behemoth as a nervous supplicant. Unsurprisingly, the EU promptly punched Britain in the solar plexus and is now preparing to kick it in the head.
As for the Brexiteers in Cabinet, they have all been revealed as beyond pathetic. According to media reports, as Friday’s marathon meeting wore on – after a brief, flailing and juvenile eruption by Boris Johnson – they all ended up supporting this appalling travesty.
It is hard to avoid the conclusion that they were all measuring their leadership ambitions against each other and so collectively were unable to present a united front. It was self-interest first, national interest last. Not one of them has resigned. “Friends” of Boris Johnson say he can do more to fight for Brexit by staying within Cabinet. Really? He has now put his name to Brexit’s betrayal. He will not be forgiven.
All these people have now shown themselves unworthy of leading their party.
They do not deserve to be in office; the Conservative party no longer deserves to be in government.
People are rightly worried that Jeremy Corbyn, Labour’s far-left leader, may become Prime Minister. That fear has helped Mrs May fight off any possible challengers. Jeremy Corbyn has been her human shield.
But here’s the thing. If the choice is to be between Mrs May’s Brexit betrayal and a Corbyn government, many may well now be thinking they’d either actually prefer Corbyn, who at least remains personally hostile to UK membership of the EU – or far more lethally, that there’s no longer much point in trying to stop him.
Because if Britain really is to remain tied to the EU, the UK parliament will increasingly become no more significant than Westminster regional council within the Brussels empire. So who cares if Corbyn becomes Prime Minister, this thinking would go, since the EU won’t let him do half of what he wants to do anyway?
And that’s the worst danger of all from this debacle: that the British people will simply lose faith not just in the wretched Conservative party but in the democratic process which will become increasingly meaningless.
That said, this thing is far from over; indeed, it may have only just begun. For if the EU sticks to its previous intransigence, it will reject the British government’s offer and insist that it makes further concessions to the EU’s rules which even Mrs May dare not make.
Which means, prepare now for “no deal”. Which Britain should have done right from the start.
But however this finally ends, Mrs May and her craven colleagues have done real damage – to themselves as politicians, to the Conservative party and to democracy itself
Below is dear old Melanie’s latest tweet.
I’ve said it before: draft Farage. Sack May, give Farage a peerage, make him party leader and PM – at least until UK really does properly leave the EU.
Too fanciful? Desperate times need desperate measures; public faith in democratic process now in danger
Marvellous , the certifiably bonkers Melanie Phillips take on things.
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mejonaNO12 aka riskit
Well-known member
Well you're a polite little sausage.
No..im not well versed. I literally said I didn't really understand it. Please read my previous posts. Upaettingly in my hours of debate watching it was never fully clarified for idiots like me.
Remaining in the EU was the status quo..
.because that was the current status. You could argue there is literally nothing that is ever status quo because it could possibly change in the future.
But still, stupid people n all.
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D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
How about we leave first, then after two years if it hasn't worked how, we then have another vote to rejoin. Fair is fair.
Mother-of-three Dawn Sturgess, 44, died on Sunday evening after falling ill in Amesbury on 30 June.
Her partner, Charlie Rowley, 45, who was also exposed to the nerve agent, remains critically ill in hospital.
British citizens on British soil and agents of a foreign government stand accused of the murder of Dawn Sturgess.
What sort of Foreign Secretary deems this an appropriate time to resign?
Her partner, Charlie Rowley, 45, who was also exposed to the nerve agent, remains critically ill in hospital.
British citizens on British soil and agents of a foreign government stand accused of the murder of Dawn Sturgess.
What sort of Foreign Secretary deems this an appropriate time to resign?
Hold that vote. Corby and some of his mates are meh about the EU and are happy enough to brexit. But JC isn't a leader. He isn't actually pro-brexit as such. He couldn't negociate a better Brexit than May. On Brexit he is going with what he sees is the flow (the majorty view of a referendum). He is also being lazy and lazy minded. And stupid, because he can't see what a catastrophe a hard brexit will be, but that's another issue.
But the labour party as a whole are majority remain. All these young kids who joined labour on the momentum tide are remainers, paradoxically. Did you not see the banner at the labour pop festival recently?
JC is a strage old labour type, sorry for the Palestnians, embarrassed about the potato famine and the social exclusion of catholics in NI before the early 1970s, and he can't then see what constitutes the greater good (or the greater bad). He is a backbencher, not a leader. Unfortunately he has now acquired a fixation about how he's going to renationalise large swathes of british industry (some of which, like the railways, would be a reat move but prohibitively costly) and has taken his eye off the ball. I imagine he gives Brexit about as much thought as I give to cricket.
If you support Brexit you'd be better off supporting the tories as they seem hell bent on brexiting even if they don't know how to do it. There is a chance that Corbyn will flounce if leading the Brexit negociations, and if he does I can't see momentum (sorry, the labour rank and file) backing another ditherer or brexitter as his replacement. Boy, do I hope I'm right.....
This.
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Tricky but worthwhile. Ultimately undermined though by the Tory Party. You Remainers should be very happy that Mrs May has brought the country back from the brink of independence. I am expecting an upsurge in Tory voting intention as the pro EU lobby unite behind the leadership
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
Because the other 27 countries would decide the deal, such as joining the Euro, not having choice over our immigration policy etc etc.
We already have the best deal.
1. UK rebate
2. Schengen opt-out
3. Euro opt-out
4. Exempt from Euro bailouts
5. Charter of fundamental rights
6. AFSJ opt-out
7. Exempt from commitment to "ever closer union"
Britain always got concessions, while *in* the EU.
I suspect he sees himself more as a Churchill figure....at least he hasn't yet joined another party yet, merely changed his mind. A bit. So he probably still sees himself as loyal
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
I read 90% were pro-EU/voted Remain. There has been talk at Labour's upcoming conference of motions being put forward of a clear alternative to the Tories mess, by Momentum no less, which if voted on and carried would force the front bench's hand as they would become policy. Could be too little, too late, we'll see.
Weststander
Well-known member
Very good summary.
One thing though, I personally know many lifelong Labour voters (who loath the Tory party), who voted Brexit and if anything their resolve has hardened. These include people in their 20's and 30's, some of whom are graduates. The main reason, hating the changes in the UK they saw before their very eyes in mass immigration, with a secondary reason a dislike of the EU apparatus.
They weren't converted by a £10B to the NHS battle bus. They were already converted.
In the quite liberal world of NSC, London and Brighton, I think we live in a bit of a bubble, not taking on board the radical changes in the UK aware from the media narrative. I welcome all the Poles, Somalis, etc who came to the UK to work, but there are huge swathes of the UK thoroughly angry about that.
It's a complex nation and world at this moment in history.
- Aug 7, 2003
- 8,075
Perhaps he’s party to information that will not be made available to the general public. Do you believe anything politicians say anymore, irrespective of party? They have zero concern for the people that elected them, but will just tow the line drawn by those playing global games and very dangerous games at that.
cjd
Well-known member
No....you're not an idiot at all.
The whole country was lied to by all and sundry from both sides. I wanted to remain, but I don't truthfully understand the full implications that will evolve over the next 10 years.
Apart from politicians, even this board is littered with big gobs and shouty people from both sides ( Her Tubthumper in partucular) who talk shit and only give one side..their entrenched 'no nothing' point of view.
I wish the plague on all of them for their disgusting behaviour.
Gobshites the lot of them.
Hampster Gull
Well-known member
- Dec 22, 2010
- 13,465
I know, we were on a winner
The_Viper
Well-known member
I voted leave. If the vote went again after this shit storm I'd definitely switch to remain. In the same way I was lied to when I voted Lib Dems about the student tuition, I have no trust in those running this entire Brexit deal and I'd rather stay now. No point gloating either way though, it is what it is. A majority of those who voted to leave aren't going to be happy with this deal. Now isn't a time to get angry at the people who voted to leave like so many are desperate to do, now is the time to unite and give a united front at the polls by getting this lot out. If we can stop with the name calling and fighting for 5 minutes.