[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

OK, let's give it another shot. There is no logical distinction between Democracy, the Stock Exchange, Christianity, Capitalism, Voodooism, Money, Communism, UK legal system, Islam etc. They are all belief systems imagined and developed by people to solve problems and order society. Yes, some may appear more tangible than others but they are nevertheless artificial, social constructs with no reliance on the physics, chemistry or biology of the real world.

You insist that Democracy is "real and true" and imply that Religion isn't.

How many hundreds of thousands of churches and temples have been built in the world; would you say that those buildings are "real and true"? Our latest form of Democracy (First-past-the-post, men & women over 18) also has a glorious temple on the banks of the Thames. They are all the tangible artefacts of imagined belief systems.

How many millions of people have been killed in the name of Christ? Would you say all those deaths are "real and true"? The UK has also killed millions of people in the name of our Democracy (& Capitalism). They are all the tangible effects of imagined belief systems

Christianity promises that if you lead a good life you will be rewarded after death.

It really is that simple and although some might say the reward is illusory, if you believe in the message then you have complete control over whether you live for all eternity in heaven or hell.

UK Democracy promises that if you vote for someone and you don't like what they do during the next 5 years then your reward will be that you can decide not to vote for them next time (i.e after the event). Of course, it may be that the political party to which your representative belongs decides on a policy that neither of you find acceptable. Or it may be that your representative agrees with some of your beliefs but not others. Or you may decide that it is a political party you support and not their representative. Or it might be that you support the party aims and the personality of their representative equally. Or it might be that you support the representative because they take a particular stance on a single issue about which you feel strongly. Or your representative might decide to cross the floor and change their party allegiance. Or it might be that you have a single issue about which you feel strongly that is supported by a party whose general beliefs you find unacceptable. Or you feel strongly about an issue that is not supported by any party. Or it might be that you believe that proportional representation is much better than first-past-the-post (voters in the top 10% of constituencies wield 30 times more power than the least influential). Or that vote weighting is better than one person one vote (in 2010 more than half of all voters voted against their winning MP). Or Democracy is wrong (in the safest of seats your vote is virtually worthless). And this doesn't take into account all those hidden decisions and accommodations taken by the mandarins in Her Majesty's civil service that are not subject to your accountability scrutiny. Or those decisions influenced by powerful political lobby groups or UK/global business interests (e.g. Harold Macmillan's minister for transport determining a third of Britain's railways should be removed whilst holding significant business interests in road construction).

It really is even more complicated than that and although some might say the reward is illusory, if you believe in the message then you will subject your representative and/or his party to accountability.

The reason that both Christianity and Democracy look remarkably like belief systems is because that is what they are.

You don't answers any of my questions but continue to plug away with your accountability mantra. That's blind faith for you.

Nope, still doesn’t do it for me.
you will have to come up with an actual real argument if you want to convince me over to your stance that democracy and accountability are of little consequence.
10/10 for trying though.

 

[pastafarian]

Pasta is a man who spends his every waking moment on here from about 05:00 to 02:00, every single day and spends most of that time chasing other users across the board and following his odd little agenda.

Correct interpretation, pastafarian has made that ONE post the axis of his weird obsession with me and my postings from the second I wrote it,

a rare combination play……..victim card laced with unfounded paranoia …….nice.
And correction its not just ONE post where you have been a twit.

 

[pastafarian]

Anyway, you couldn't name ONE SINGE regulation you disagreed with :

perhaps soulman thought your question was immature

what is this obsession the remainers have with receiving a response on naming EU regulation you don’t like or name a EU law that has personally affected you or name a EU law that has made your life worse, explain how it has made your life worse?
why is it you have to be personally affected when it comes to EU laws? You don’t have to be in normal political discourse. Sounds like more desperation
You don’t have to be disabled to protest at disability regulation, you don’t have to be a junior doctor to stand on the picket line with junior doctors, neither do you have to be a fisherman to think UK fishing communities have had a rum time from EU legislation. This remainer group think on EU laws is bizarre, it would certainly reduce the numbers of detractors if you could only protest if personally affected,(perhaps that’s the thinking behind it), but its very weird

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

The latest from Boris (speech last night): "Brexit is Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it".

Previous quote from Alan Partridge: “Oh yeah, people go on about Titanic, Titanic... Let me tell you something about the Titanic. People forget that on the Titanic’s maiden voyage there were over 1,000 miles of uneventful, very pleasurable cruising before it hit the iceberg!”

Thanks Boris.

 

[WATFORD zero]

 

[BigGully]

I presume we were manufacturing way too much in the past as well? And the national debt was way too low?

Interesting argument...and seemingly the only argument you have.

Its no more than a comment on currency fluctuation, join the Euro ??

 

[BigGully]

'Fluctuations' suggests movement in two directions. Clutching at straws. Sterling has dropped through the floor.

You didnt seem to mind when you were flogging your stuff the other way did you, its an interesting point that you seem to acknowledge quickly the negatives of a price increase for whatever reason, which is quite reasonable, when however you cannot even begin to acknowledge the UK's negotiation position when we as a net importer of hundreds of billions of pounds worth of services and products from the EU and as Remainers see it an inevitable punitive trade deal which will then trigger increase costs for their exporters.

Surely using your logic, the EU and their businesses would be wholly irresponsible not to negotiate favourably with the UK on trade, otherwise as you said yourself, price increases no matter temporary or not 'WILL slow down business without question, and it will cost people their jobs', I agree the EU would be wholly irresponsble to inflict this on their own people.

 

[vegster]

Assuming you really care about people on benefits, low paid workers, etc etc ... you realise our EU membership fee for the last Parliament would have virtually covered all the Austerity cuts. Money well spent

So could the money lost when the Pound crashed in value and the money that has, and is still being spent on quantative easing for the banks. I do hope you have a nice well paid job and good health because if you lose either of those there will be little state support for you.

 

[Simster]

You didnt seem to mind when you were flogging your stuff the other way did you, its an interesting point that you seem to acknowledge quickly the negatives of a price increase for whatever reason, which is quite reasonable, when however you cannot even begin to acknowledge the UK's negotiation position when we as a net importer of hundreds of billions of pounds worth of services and products from the EU and as Remainers see it an inevitable punitive trade deal which will then trigger increase costs for their exporters.

Surely using your logic, the EU and their businesses would be wholly irresponsible not to negotiate favourably with the UK on trade, otherwise as you said yourself, price increases no matter temporary or not 'WILL slow down business without question, and it will cost people their jobs', I agree the EU would be wholly irresponsble to inflict this on their own people.

That's because it's absolute bollocks. I can't believe there are still clowns who seem to think this island of 60m people hold all the aces over the rest of the EU trading block where numbers are approaching 450m. Sure we import more than we export right now, but that doesn't tell you much. Firstly, how much more will it cost to import from elsewhere in the world? That depends on what we're importing and the availability from elsewhere. Energy, for example (an enormous market) will cost FAR more to import from outside the EU.

Just think of the numbers FFS. 60m against 450m. Even if you want to weight those numbers to reflect economic strength, we are still going to be four or five times smaller.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

You didnt seem to mind when you were flogging your stuff the other way did you, its an interesting point that you seem to acknowledge quickly the negatives of a price increase for whatever reason...

Problem here is, you're just making stuff up. We don't 'flog stuff the other way'. That's just not what we do.

We sell a Swiss product in the UK. I work for the UK part of a company (ultimately wholly owned by a Swiss parent company). We can't shop elsewhere - we can only buy that product. It has increased massively in price over the course of this year, to the point that our order book for next year is all but empty, and people are very likely going to be out of work.

I'm sure you're very comfortable in your own personal circumstance, so good for you. A great deal of people are facing very tough times ahead.

 

[FatSuperman]

I don't know why we need to argue about leave or remain anymore. That is done and regardless which way you leant we are now all in the same boat right?

With regards to negotiating trade agreements with the EU, I think we will find that it is a case of politics first, economics second. Yes, we have a trade deficit with the EU, so on the whole we import more from them than we sell them. But given the EU is a collection of nations, which all need to agree the new deal, I would be staggered if they made it easy on us just because the EU as a whole would be marginally better off. They are weaker without us already and they absolutely will prioritise not making it simple and rewarding to exit the EU.

 

[BigGully]

Problem here is, you're just making stuff up. We don't 'flog stuff the other way'. That's just not what we do.

We sell a Swiss product in the UK. I work for the UK part of a company (ultimately wholly owned by a Swiss parent company). We can't shop elsewhere - we can only buy that product. It has increased massively in price over the course of this year, to the point that our order book for next year is all but empty, and people are very likely going to be out of work.

I'm sure you're very comfortable in your own personal circumstance, so good for you. A great deal of people are facing very tough times ahead.

My whole comment wasnt a comment on your own company or your personal circumstance, but it was in response to your post which was soley about your business and you quoted an actual transaction, so you deserved a response even if you didnt like it.

My wider point was that you dont lend your same logic to the EU and the UK negotiations where Remainers tend to think that EU should/will have a punitive negotiating position which might be recipricated by the UK on the EU's exporters, the same outcome might happen to many thousands of EU workers just as your own in your one small business, so in essence why wouldn't EU businesses urge their governments to negotiate favourably with the UK.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

My whole comment wasnt a comment on your own company or your personal circumstance, but it was in response to your post which was soley about your business and you quoted an actual transaction, so you deserved a response even if you didnt like it.

My wider point was that you dont lend your same logic to the EU and the UK negotiations where Remainers tend to think that EU should/will have a punitive negotiating position which might be recipricated by the UK on the EU's exporters, the same outcome might happen to many thousands of EU workers just as your own in your one small business, so in essence why wouldn't EU businesses urge their governments to negotiate favourably with the UK.

Quite simply (and for the third time), because I am NOT commenting on negotiations, or trade deals. I'm talking about the (actual, current) FACT that there are a shitload of UK companies at risk of going to wall, because of the ACTUAL cost of imports. Right now.

 

[beorhthelm]

That's because it's absolute bollocks. I can't believe there are still clowns who seem to think this island of 60m people hold all the aces over the rest of the EU trading block where numbers are approaching 450m. Sure we import more than we export right now, but that doesn't tell you much. Firstly, how much more will it cost to import from elsewhere in the world? That depends on what we're importing and the availability from elsewhere. Energy, for example (an enormous market) will cost FAR more to import from outside the EU.

Just think of the numbers FFS. 60m against 450m. Even if you want to weight those numbers to reflect economic strength, we are still going to be four or five times smaller.

and yet today i read the Irish are cautioning EU against playing hard and a German group advising the government to try to row back Brexit as it would cause economic loss and political mess to EU/Germany.

 

[Simster]

and yet today i read the Irish are cautioning EU against playing hard and a German group advising the government to try to row back Brexit as it would cause economic loss and political mess to EU/Germany.

The Irish are a very specific case - they are the only nation who trade more with us than with the rest of the EU, so of course they are going to do that.

I can't comment on your Germany group example as I know nothing about it. I suspect they have their own specific interests at heart though. None of that really disproves the blatant fact that we are not the ones who hold all the aces in these negotiations. That is absolute nonsense.

 

[Bozza]

BrExit discussion, speculation etc... (merged threads)

Court rules that Parliament must approve triggering of Article 50.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Interesting...

 

[beorhthelm]

I can't comment on your Germany group example as I know nothing about it. I suspect they have their own specific interests at heart though. None of that really disproves the blatant fact that we are not the ones who hold all the aces in these negotiations. That is absolute nonsense.

who said "we hold all the aces"? you did, its a straw man you constructed, arguing agains the point that we should acknowledge we do have a strong negotiating position. true we not the strongest party involved, the EU could just tell us to go play in the Atlantic, impose full tariffs, block services etc. however not without consequences to their own economic outlook.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

Take that Brexshiters!!!!!

 

[spring hall convert]

Court rules that Parliament must approve triggering of Article 50.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Interesting...

Batten down the hatches. It's going to get very rough again.

 

[ditchy]

Court rules that Parliament must approve triggering of Article 50.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Interesting...

Its all off , Cue lawyers fighting over this for years to come