[Politics] Brexit

[Green Cross Code Man]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...gret-bregret-choice-in-millions-a7113336.html

Wasn't hard

Thanks for the result but why the smart comment? Sometimes Google is very particular about wording.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

That opinium poll is deeply flawed. There is always a certain amount of buyers remorse involved after a big decision. The anti leave papers, particularly the bizarrely named independent is the one rag which won't leave the idea of a second referendum alone. Any poll at the moment is going to be affected by numbers of people who are worried about the state of affairs regarding the economy, pound, negotiations etc. It is inevitably a very uncertain time. This will skew the result. In addition there's nothing to stop remainers claim that they voted leave and then changed their minds.

The evangelistic manner in which the Indy tries to engender excitement and support for another referenda is both misguided and a complete waste of effort. By its reasoning, it could be argued that when we have a general election, another one should follow several months later, after all, many of us have at some time regretted voting for a particular party or another.

One last note on the company that carried out the poll, two weeks before the referendum, it predicted a 19 point win for leave. I'd take it all with a very large pinch of salt.

 

[The Rivet]

This thread is supposed to be about the Sterling exchange rate. I see it has morphed a little to become the new battle ground between leavers and remainers. Rest in peace the referendum thread I suppose.

However lets examine the exchange rate. Savers are buoyed by a potential of inflation. They will get a better return. As it is though our small manufacturing base is producing and selling well in the main. Their export books are full. We may pay more for food and fuel I agree. I think that's ok myself. Standard and poor will maybe downgrade our rating below its current status costing us more to borrow (who the f**k is Standard and poor?) in the short term. Are we any worse off than the EU?

The economy of the EU is damaged. Greece a total basket case. Italy not that far behind. Spain and Portugal teetering and the commission inviting in more countries who will be net 'gainers'.

Then this in Germany.........The CDU, Germans main party whose leader is Herr Angela(Hitler) Merkel today appears to have called for an alliance with the 'AfD'
Is this a move from the CDU to hold onto power?
Does this sound good or not?

Germany is losing power. The Euro and the EU is on borrowed time. I still haven't really addressed Deutsche Bank either. The white elephant in the room.
Break the EU and their power now. It really is in our best interest.

 

[Seagull58]

not just you but a number of people seem to be holding this view - is it simply partisan political bias? please explain how is the desire to trade with the whole world, rather than focus on trade with immediate neighbours, isolationist or xenophobic? it just doesnt make any sense to accuse the brexit ministers of this.
also, to the first part, we cant ask say we want to remain in the single market and then negotiate trade with others outside the EU. one of the rules of being "in" the single market is that you follow the single market trade rules, and they dictate how you trade with the non-EU world. its sort of the whole point, its essentially a protectionist cabal joined together at the expense of indepedent trade. (with good reason: otherwise you could act as a entry point for all the external trade, bypassing their rules on tariffs and quotas.).

Exactly right, the EU is a closed shop that will only trade with external partners under very one-sided terms,if it can get them. Hence, the reason India has been negotiating with the EU for 7 years without agreement.

 

[Diego Napier]

Its important as I strongly believe in the whole concept of redress of grievance that we have with regard to our parliamentary system, it is fundamental to the relationship between the elected and the elector.
This process breaks down when it hits matters concerning legislation that is influenced from EU. That cant be right. The only way to address this imbalance is to return more law making decisions to westminster from Europe. I cant think why you believe the process of redress is not important.

Really? Earlier in the thread you selected and challenged the first sentence in the following paragraph from a detailed response I made to another poster:-

Whether a decision is made in Brussels or Westminster is of little consequence to the ordinary person and will have minimal affect on them. Someone once said "voting is the opiate of the masses". I'd go further; democracy is better than most other religions at maintaining civil order but assuming that exercising your democratic right will materially affect your life is a delusion actively encouraged by those individuals and corporations who really wield power. "Regaining control", "Sovereignty", "Brussels bureaucrats", "EU technocrats", "Independence" are rallying-cry buzzwords ardently echoed by those expecting Brexit to invoke some sort of radical change to their daily lives. They will be disappointed.

If you had read and understood the whole paragraph then you wouldn't be asking why I believe the process of redress is not important.

 

[The Rivet]

Really? Earlier in the thread you selected and challenged the first sentence in the following paragraph from a detailed response I made to another poster:-



If you had read and understood the whole paragraph then you wouldn't be asking why I believe the process of redress is not important.

Wow you are so far up your own ego.

 

[pastafarian]

Really? Earlier in the thread you selected and challenged the first sentence in the following paragraph from a detailed response I made to another poster:-



If you had read and understood the whole paragraph then you wouldn't be asking why I believe the process of redress is not important.

well as ive already said to you, you are entitled to your opinion on this issue.I just disagree with it.
I believe the ordinary man (or woman) having the right to redress of grievance through parliament is incredibly important you dont think its important and is of little consequence.......i will never understand that stance or the reasoning behind it, but understand how it can be favoured by supporters of The EU and how it fits in with its ideals and governance.

lets hope you,anyone you know or anyone in the country for that matter ever feels the need to use the process of redress from today onwards.

 

[pb21]

I believe the ordinary man (or woman) having the right to redress of grievance through parliament is incredibly important...

We already have this? Admittedly further up you qualify this a bit further saying:

"This process breaks down when it hits matters concerning legislation that is influenced from EU."

Now we are going old ground, but I'd love to know what grievances the ordinary man has that can't be redressed in our government due to EU legislation?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

We already have this? Admittedly further up you qualify this a bit further saying:

"This process breaks down when it hits matters concerning legislation that is influenced from EU."

Now we are going old ground, but I'd love to know what grievances the ordinary man has that can't be redressed in our government due to EU legislation?

Free movement of people. It should be up to each individual country, how many people they allow in.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

This thread is supposed to be about the Sterling exchange rate. I see it has morphed a little to become the new battle ground between leavers and remainers. Rest in peace the referendum thread I suppose.

However lets examine the exchange rate. Savers are buoyed by a potential of inflation. They will get a better return. As it is though our small manufacturing base is producing and selling well in the main. Their export books are full. We may pay more for food and fuel I agree. I think that's ok myself. Standard and poor will maybe downgrade our rating below its current status costing us more to borrow (who the f**k is Standard and poor?) in the short term. Are we any worse off than the EU?

The economy of the EU is damaged. Greece a total basket case. Italy not that far behind. Spain and Portugal teetering and the commission inviting in more countries who will be net 'gainers'.

Then this in Germany.........The CDU, Germans main party whose leader is Herr Angela(Hitler) Merkel today appears to have called for an alliance with the 'AfD'
Is this a move from the CDU to hold onto power?
Does this sound good or not?

Germany is losing power. The Euro and the EU is on borrowed time. I still haven't really addressed Deutsche Bank either. The white elephant in the room.
Break the EU and their power now. It really is in our best interest.

If the AfD have any sense they will tell her to clear off. Really don't know what she can offer the Afd, if its about reducing the numbers of Refugees and Economic Migrants it will never happen. The door is now wide open to Germany and cannot be shut.

The EU is most certainly influenced by what Germany and France says. No matter what they tried to tell us, we really didn't have any influence at all, they just liked our money. If they cared so much they would have given Cameron a deal us voters couldn't refuse, they reason they didn't, they where so comfortable the result was going to go their way. The EU never loses and nobody has ever had the balls to say No to them.

 

[pb21]

Free movement of people. It should be up to each individual country, how many people they allow in.

Ah yes, free movement of EU citizens, how could I forget! Any others?

As an aside however, you would think that the UK do decide how many people they let in as they let in non EU citizens too, which they don't have to. So it appears that EU citizens on their own don't make up enough and we have decided to let more come in?

 

[pastafarian]

We already have this? Admittedly further up you qualify this a bit further saying:

"This process breaks down when it hits matters concerning legislation that is influenced from EU."

Now we are going old ground, but I'd love to know what grievances the ordinary man has that can't be redressed in our government due to EU legislation?

,been mentioned a few times and is something that is quite common apparently.
If you go and see your MP over an issue and he/she is helping you out for example over the grievance,then approaches someone more knowledgeable on the subject matter say a minister in a specific department it occurs sometimes the minister might point out the grievance falls under legislation or a directive that has originally come from Brussels and therefore there is nothing the MP can do.

Edit you are also correct this is turning into covering old ground again

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Ah yes, free movement of EU citizens, how could I forget! Any others?

As an aside however, you would think that the UK do decide how many people they let in as they let in non EU citizens too, which they don't have to. So it appears that EU citizens on their own don't make up enough and we have decided to let more come in?

The whole problem with Free Movement, we have absolutely no control on the numbers.

 

[pb21]

,been mentioned a few times and is something that is quite common apparently.
If you go and see your MP over an issue and he/she is helping you out for example over the grievance,then approaches someone more knowledgeable on the subject matter say a minister in a specific department it occurs sometimes the minister might point out the grievance falls under legislation or a directive that has originally come from Brussels and therefore there is nothing the MP can do.

You use the words 'quite common apparently', quite telling IMO.

This is all just 'hear say' and anti EU agenda stuff. To be honest what you have written sounds like something straight from the pages of the Daily Mail, you don't write for them do you? I expect there are some issues that cant be redressed due to EU legislation, but I don't know of any that the ordinary man may have?

I was just after some tangible, concrete grievances an ordinary man may have that can't be redressed in our government due to EU legislation. We have had immigration of EU citizens, any others?

In addition it would be nice to know how the ordinary man's grievances could be redressed when we leave the EU; i.e. how would these issues be redressed if they could?

 

[pastafarian]

You use the words 'quite common apparently', quite telling IMO.

This is all just 'hear say' and anti EU agenda stuff. To be honest what you have written sounds like something straight from the pages of the Daily Mail, you don't write for them do you? I expect there are some issues that cant be redressed due to EU legislation, but I don't know of any that the ordinary man may have?

I was just after some tangible, concrete grievances an ordinary man may have that can't be redressed in our government due to EU legislation. We have had immigration of EU citizens, any others?

In addition it would be nice to know how the ordinary man's grievances could be redressed when we leave the EU; i.e. how would these issues be redressed if they could?

Think if you are a small business owner and you feel you have been shafted over something,only to find out down the line this shafting is permitted because of something that has come from brussels.dont forget ordinary man is just code for citizen. I actually wasnt thinking about immigration in the slightest.
You already recognise its possible yourself "I expect there are some issues that cant be redressed due to EU legislation" and by asking how this problem is fixed when we leave,
If you can be bothered, and its not everyones cup of tea look up what rees mogg talks about on this issue,its one of his pet hates..... im sure his tv appearances where he talks about it and mentions specifics must be online somewhere.
as for the last point, when leaving,..eu legislation will be transferred to be accountable by parliament

 

[JC Footy Genius]

And no sign of an apology? I see why she left you!

Disappointing ... but I wasn't expecting one. She had much better reasons for that ...

 

[Diego Napier]

well as ive already said to you, you are entitled to your opinion on this issue.I just disagree with it.
I believe the ordinary man (or woman) having the right to redress of grievance through parliament is incredibly important you dont think its important and is of little consequence.......i will never understand that stance or the reasoning behind it, but understand how it can be favoured by supporters of The EU and how it fits in with its ideals and governance.

lets hope you,anyone you know or anyone in the country for that matter ever feels the need to use the process of redress from today onwards.

I'm not necessarily a supporter of the EU per se.

Patently, we are all now part of an interconnected world with a global economy based on nation states created randomly through war, conquest, appeasement and opportunity. Nation states are part of a belief system that has served powerful leaders well in the past but I feel will become increasingly outmoded as other belief systems take precedence or evolve. Your membership of a current nation state is obviously as random as the football team you support, i.e through accident of birth. Relatively trivial partisan support for a football team is fine but I'm averse to any parochial political moves that regress the populace back towards our tribal roots; those societies worked well when we were all hunter gatherers but mitigate against the belief system most important to me, human rights. Consequently, I'll support any developments such as the EU or UN that seek to break down barriers, agglomerate nation states and unite individuals within the global estate.

On that basis, your fateful, over-dramatic conclusion is wasted on me.

 

[Diego Napier]

Wow you are so far up your own ego.

And your own ego has brought you out to play.

With such an artfully constructed yet intoxicatingly complex put-down interleaving as it does searing wit with devastating logic I'm rendered helpless. Cut to the quick.

 

[Jim in the West]

I'm not necessarily a supporter of the EU per se.

Patently, we are all now part of an interconnected world with a global economy based on nation states created randomly through war, conquest, appeasement and opportunity. Nation states are part of a belief system that has served powerful leaders well in the past but I feel will become increasingly outmoded as other belief systems take precedence or evolve. Your membership of a current nation state is obviously as random as the football team you support, i.e through accident of birth. Relatively trivial partisan support for a football team is fine but I'm averse to any parochial political moves that regress the populace back towards our tribal roots; those societies worked well when we were all hunter gatherers but mitigate against the belief system most important to me, human rights. Consequently, I'll support any developments such as the EU or UN that seek to break down barriers, agglomerate nation states and unite individuals within the global estate.

On that basis, your fateful, over-dramatic conclusion is wasted on me.

Excellent post, Sir!

 

[Jim in the West]

I came across the comment below (from an FT.com reader, responding to an article about Donald Tusk's recent speech). It chimed with me:

"I would love to believe there will come a point where some of the adults in the room pause, look at what is happening and say enough. Brexit fantasists promised:

£18bn in revenue a year on exit - turns out that the costs of exiting and rebuilding the network of trading agreements, the promises to continue spending the large share of that £18bn that was spent in the UK anyway mean that leaving will cost the UK more than it gains.
They promised a deal with the EU that gave the UK immigration control and access to the single market - that will not happen
They promised trade deals around the world - trade deals take up to 10 years to negotiate if they ever happen, and the world is turning more protectionist, the US is not interested in a UK deal, India is not, China may but only on terms that favour them (they are not idiots). So no deals for a decade if any.
They promised no economic consequences - the currency is down more than 23%! Prices are already starting to rise and more will come, we are all poorer right now and there is only downside from here. Businesses are already reducing or postponing investment in the UK and we are already seeing financial services businesses leave (you may not like them but they pay the bills and give people jobs).

So in summary - none of the benefits are materialising and the costs are already worse than expected. And yet the Conservatives mutter 'brexit is brexit' and abdicate their responsibility to the well being and prosperity of the country. Shame on them all."