[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

You are right to suggest it's about increased freedom It's about self determination and direct democratic accountability. I am content knowing I made the right choice based on impeccable, logical/fact based reasoning. I will try to resist saying the Brexiteers saved 48% of the gullible, deluded project fear susceptible section of the population in the coming years as the EU inevitably implodes.

From your pov it's all about the money .. sovereignty/self determination/democracy are abstract, irrelevant concepts.

As long as your bank balance is OK sod the country or those poor uneducated types that fail to benefit from the status quo . How frightfully progressive.

You talked about remainers putting up a straw man, then put one up for me.

You are wrong that sovereignty/self determination and democracy were not factors for me, but sovereignty is not something you or I hold, our version of democracy is not much more democratic than the EU model, and most of the time, the majority of this country sits under a Government they did not vote for, I believe that shared sovereignty offers us more protection, that a more democratic model will emerge from the EU and that we will never have self determination as long as one or two individuals control large chunks of the media and our main political parties are funded by people or organisations with vested interests.

You are quite wrong about it being all about the money for me, it is somewhat about the economy, but as bad as it gets it will not last forever, we will come back, but it will have been a whole lot of pain for very little, if any gain. My own finances are not a concern, it is the "poor uneducated types" that suffer the most in a recession. Mostly it is about greater equality in the World and Europe to start with. It is about "us" being Europeans and not just Britons, it is about having a governing body big enough to not be pushed around by large corporations, big enough to make environmental policies that have an effect, to level the field across a wider area so that countries are not at huge disagreement with one another, to share our wealth, knowledge and resources across a wide area.
Yes there are a load of issues with the E.U. and it needs reform, there is pressure for that and it will come, but good luck trying to get any change in the British political model.
Have a look at some of the EU legislation UK government has tried to block. The Working Time Directive, this legislation recognises that long working hours are a health and safety issue and tries to prevent people from being over worked, UK tried to block, went to court to try and argue that it did not affect workers health, despite being told by their own counsel that they would lose, they lost, but got an "opt out" for UK employees, which means sign this right away or don't get the job.
UK also recently tried to block legislation requiring us to actually test air quality in cities, and not just estimate it based on the numbers and classes of vehicles registered.

The EU may collapse, this possibility increases with Britain out. For me this situation just makes us look even worse, at a time when the EU needs to pull together and the strongest need to step up, we bail out and weaken the Union.
You seem to me to be the type that likes to glory in what our grandfathers did for Europe in the war, but think that the rest of Europe should be bloody thankful for ever more, and yet you don't want to share a quid with them today.

I have to hand it to you though on the way in which you claim you voted with "impeccable, logical/fact based reasoning" to share less with Europe, politically and economically, and think that you and I will benefit from that action, to the detriment of the EU, whilst pointing a finger at me and calling me selfish, for wanting to share more.

 

[The Clamp]

You talked about remainers putting up a straw man, then put one up for me.

You are wrong that sovereignty/self determination and democracy were not factors for me, but sovereignty is not something you or I hold, our version of democracy is not much more democratic than the EU model, and most of the time, the majority of this country sits under a Government they did not vote for, I believe that shared sovereignty offers us more protection, that a more democratic model will emerge from the EU and that we will never have self determination as long as one or two individuals control large chunks of the media and our main political parties are funded by people or organisations with vested interests.

You are quite wrong about it being all about the money for me, it is somewhat about the economy, but as bad as it gets it will not last forever, we will come back, but it will have been a whole lot of pain for very little, if any gain. My own finances are not a concern, it is the "poor uneducated types" that suffer the most in a recession. Mostly it is about greater equality in the World and Europe to start with. It is about "us" being Europeans and not just Britons, it is about having a governing body big enough to not be pushed around by large corporations, big enough to make environmental policies that have an effect, to level the field across a wider area so that countries are not at huge disagreement with one another, to share our wealth, knowledge and resources across a wide area.
Yes there are a load of issues with the E.U. and it needs reform, there is pressure for that and it will come, but good luck trying to get any change in the British political model.
Have a look at some of the EU legislation UK government has tried to block. The Working Time Directive, this legislation recognises that long working hours are a health and safety issue and tries to prevent people from being over worked, UK tried to block, went to court to try and argue that it did not affect workers health, despite being told by their own counsel that they would lose, they lost, but got an "opt out" for UK employees, which means sign this right away or don't get the job.
UK also recently tried to block legislation requiring us to actually test air quality in cities, and not just estimate it based on the numbers and classes of vehicles registered.

The EU may collapse, this possibility increases with Britain out. For me this situation just makes us look even worse, at a time when the EU needs to pull together and the strongest need to step up, we bail out and weaken the Union.
You seem to me to be the type that likes to glory in what our grandfathers did for Europe in the war, but think that the rest of Europe should be bloody thankful for ever more, and yet you don't want to share a quid with them today.

I have to hand it to you though on the way in which you claim you voted with "impeccable, logical/fact based reasoning" to share less with Europe, politically and economically, and think that you and I will benefit from that action, to the detriment of the EU, whilst pointing a finger at me and calling me selfish, for wanting to share more.

Everything about this post is absolutely bang on. Superb post. I urge the Brexiteers and more right wing among you to read this carefully. You will need to refer back to it in a few years.

 

[Baldseagull]

Choice

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a ****ing big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ****ing fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the **** you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing ****ing junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, ****ed up brats you spawned to replace yourself.

Choose your future.

Choose life.

But why would Dorset Seagull want to do a thing like that? He chose not to choose life. He chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got Brexit?

 

[ManOfSussex]

You talked about remainers putting up a straw man, then put one up for me.

You are wrong that sovereignty/self determination and democracy were not factors for me, but sovereignty is not something you or I hold, our version of democracy is not much more democratic than the EU model, and most of the time, the majority of this country sits under a Government they did not vote for, I believe that shared sovereignty offers us more protection, that a more democratic model will emerge from the EU and that we will never have self determination as long as one or two individuals control large chunks of the media and our main political parties are funded by people or organisations with vested interests.

You are quite wrong about it being all about the money for me, it is somewhat about the economy, but as bad as it gets it will not last forever, we will come back, but it will have been a whole lot of pain for very little, if any gain. My own finances are not a concern, it is the "poor uneducated types" that suffer the most in a recession. Mostly it is about greater equality in the World and Europe to start with. It is about "us" being Europeans and not just Britons, it is about having a governing body big enough to not be pushed around by large corporations, big enough to make environmental policies that have an effect, to level the field across a wider area so that countries are not at huge disagreement with one another, to share our wealth, knowledge and resources across a wide area.
Yes there are a load of issues with the E.U. and it needs reform, there is pressure for that and it will come, but good luck trying to get any change in the British political model.
Have a look at some of the EU legislation UK government has tried to block. The Working Time Directive, this legislation recognises that long working hours are a health and safety issue and tries to prevent people from being over worked, UK tried to block, went to court to try and argue that it did not affect workers health, despite being told by their own counsel that they would lose, they lost, but got an "opt out" for UK employees, which means sign this right away or don't get the job.
UK also recently tried to block legislation requiring us to actually test air quality in cities, and not just estimate it based on the numbers and classes of vehicles registered.

The EU may collapse, this possibility increases with Britain out. For me this situation just makes us look even worse, at a time when the EU needs to pull together and the strongest need to step up, we bail out and weaken the Union.
You seem to me to be the type that likes to glory in what our grandfathers did for Europe in the war, but think that the rest of Europe should be bloody thankful for ever more, and yet you don't want to share a quid with them today.

I have to hand it to you though on the way in which you claim you voted with "impeccable, logical/fact based reasoning" to share less with Europe, politically and economically, and think that you and I will benefit from that action, to the detriment of the EU, whilst pointing a finger at me and calling me selfish, for wanting to share more.

Superb post. Not everyone will agree with it obviously, that's fine, but I do.

 

[Two Professors]

Everything about this post is absolutely bang on. Superb post. I urge the Brexiteers and more right wing among you to read this carefully. You will need to refer back to it in a few years.

Ridiculous load of self-pitying drivel.You might like to pretend you never wrote that in a few years!

 

[Two Professors]

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a ****ing big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ****ing fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the **** you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing ****ing junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, ****ed up brats you spawned to replace yourself.

Choose your future.

Choose life.

But why would Dorset Seagull want to do a thing like that? He chose not to choose life. He chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got Brexit?

Is that a description of your life-help is available,you know.

 

[Two Professors]

Superb post. Not everyone will agree with it obviously, that's fine, but I do.

Agreeing with a clone of yourself!

 

[The Clamp]

Ridiculous load of self-pitying drivel.You might like to pretend you never wrote that in a few years!

 

[Soulman]

It's so much worse than that...with France now given the leading hand in our Brexitt negotiations, and China being a massive investor in the UK could we possibly have upset two more important nations? Why couldn't we just annoy Andorra or Easter Island.

I thought the reason we got out of the EU because our decisions can be made here, by us. Now you want us to pander to others.....upset, upset..it is a multi billion decision that has to be RIGHT for us, at the moment it is not.

 

[Soulman]

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a ****ing big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ****ing fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the **** you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing ****ing junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, ****ed up brats you spawned to replace yourself.

Choose your future.

Choose life.

But why would Dorset Seagull want to do a thing like that? He chose not to choose life. He chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got Brexit?

Correct, we have a choice, we can choose........the majority chose Brexit.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Agreeing with a clone of yourself!

No. I'm simply agreeing with someone else who happens to post an opinion I share, that's all.

 

[fat old seagull]

I thought the reason we got out of the EU because our decisions can be made here, by us. Now you want us to pander to others.....upset, upset..it is a multi billion decision that has to be RIGHT for us,at the moment it is not.

No but it bloody well will be, if we don't plan ahead! These things take years to build, should have been started some time ago. That said, if the quality of life in what's left of the U.K starts to deteriorate, it may at least deter immigrants.

 

[Soulman]

No but it bloody well will be, if we don't plan ahead! These things take years to build, should have been started some time ago. That said, if the quality of life in what's left of the U.K starts to deteriorate, it may at least deter immigrants.

I think we agree this should have been planned years ago, we were warned many years ago, but this project involving these companies has gone massively over budget elsewhere in the world, i believe the cost of units would be two thirds up on our energy now......surely we need a better deal than that.

 

[fat old seagull]

Ridiculous load of self-pitying drivel.You might like to pretend you never wrote that in a few years!

Of course on the other hand, you might like to pretend you'd believed it!

Because if you don't think the Europeans (especially the French) aren't going to make us pay, in my opinion you are misguided.
If the Europeans tease the London Financiers away to Paris or beyond, we will be in the doo doos... all just to say we are own bosses. But time will tell. On the upside I'd be happy to be wrong. As that would mean my grandchildren living a more secure life. And I promise I'll be happy to increase my font to size 7 and say I was wrong.

 

[Billy the Fish]

To be fair I think we would all like the type of Europe that [MENTION=23343]Baldseagull[/MENTION] describes The fundamental difference is that anyone who voted to leave believes none of that is possible in the EU's current form, and that it will never reform itself.

It is already in the pocket of big buisness, read about corporate lobbyists and the EU. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen here, but at least it is held to account and scrutinised.

It's already less democratic than our current system, every power that moves to Brussels takes it an extra step away from the citizen. Our system needs reform and we have more chance of doing it outside the EU. Again, the EU is a step away from accountability and scrutiny.

I think everyone would like greater equality, how is that going so far? Ask Greece, Italy or Portugal if some countries are more equal than others.

Time will tell who is right or wrong. There are pros and cons either way, but on balance I believe the odds are better outside.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

What contract again! Do you, or can you imagine that EDF or the Chinese are going to come back to the table again with this? Not on your Nelly.
Never in my rather long life can I recall the Government reneging on a massive project like this, it's a total embarrassment. Give it ten years we'll be trying to sneak into Albania for a better lifestyle.

I agree with you - that it should come to this humiliation is one more cock-up in a badly governed country. We are where we are though and whilst I know 50 percent of nothing about nuclear power people who do know suggest it's a poor deal. If that's correct, better to further damage our reputation now than blow another £30bn we don't have.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You talked about remainers putting up a straw man, then put one up for me.

Fair point. The perils of posting after 2am after an enjoyable evening out .. my apologies.

You are wrong that sovereignty/self determination and democracy were not factors for me, but sovereignty is not something you or I hold, our version of democracy is not much more democratic than the EU model, and most of the time, the majority of this country sits under a Government they did not vote for, I believe that shared sovereignty offers us more protection, that a more democratic model will emerge from the EU and that we will never have self determination as long as one or two individuals control large chunks of the media and our main political parties are funded by people or organisations with vested interests.

In most democratic systems a majority of people sit under a government they didn't vote for but the UK population do get a direct democratic say in electing and removing said government. At least you acknowledge the EU is less democratic though.

The continuous dilution of sovereignty has been inherently undemocratic as no government seeks a specific mandate to pass control/law making to an external body. It just happens as every new EU treaty comes along. How has this process 'offered us more protection' than could be achieved as an independent nation state? As for your hope for a more 'democratic' EU .. only possible by increasing powers to the European parliament inevitably diminishing ours while making no difference to protecting our national interests.

http://forbritain.org/MEPs votes.pdf

This may come as a surprise but I think you will find all political parties across Europe are funded by people or organisations with vested interests and media mogul's try to influence them. In some EU member countries the Media mogul's even become Prime Minister and thanks to our membership they have a say on our affairs.

You are quite wrong about it being all about the money for me, it is somewhat about the economy, but as bad as it gets it will not last forever, we will come back, but it will have been a whole lot of pain for very little, if any gain. My own finances are not a concern, it is the "poor uneducated types" that suffer the most in a recession. Mostly it is about greater equality in the World and Europe to start with. It is about "us" being Europeans and not just Britons, it is about having a governing body big enough to not be pushed around by large corporations, big enough to make environmental policies that have an effect, to level the field across a wider area so that countries are not at huge disagreement with one another, to share our wealth, knowledge and resources across a wide area.

I am happy to concede I was wrong on that point then. Project Fear predictions of recession are already being rowed back on. We will see the true pain to gain ratio in the coming years. Meanwhile back in the real world a European governing body that has helped create the conditions for rising nationalism and extremism across Europe, crippling youth unemployment, enforced poverty and misery in some member states. More and worse to come as the Eurozone crisis enters a new phase (See Italy). I think you will also find large corporations love the centralised EU institutions as they are the only ones with enough power and wealth to fund vast lobbying operations also providing nice career opportunities for departing Eurocrats. Hasn't the former head of the European Commission recently been made non exec Chairman of Goldman Sachs?

http://corporateeurope.org/power-lobbies/revolving-doors

Yes there are a load of issues with the E.U. and it needs reform, there is pressure for that and it will come, but good luck trying to get any change in the British political model.
Have a look at some of the EU legislation UK government has tried to block. The Working Time Directive, this legislation recognises that long working hours are a health and safety issue and tries to prevent people from being over worked, UK tried to block, went to court to try and argue that it did not affect workers health, despite being told by their own counsel that they would lose, they lost, but got an "opt out" for UK employees, which means sign this right away or don't get the job.
UK also recently tried to block legislation requiring us to actually test air quality in cities, and not just estimate it based on the numbers and classes of vehicles registered.

We've been waiting for EU reform for decades if it had we would still be in it. Further deeper integration is the only game in town damn the consequences. Yes we can all pick out examples to suit our argument (funding Eurozone bailout, funding Turkey's EU membership bid) but you cannot avoid the fact we were always a reluctant member being dragged in a direction we didn't want to go.

The EU may collapse, this possibility increases with Britain out. For me this situation just makes us look even worse, at a time when the EU needs to pull together and the strongest need to step up, we bail out and weaken the Union.
You seem to me to be the type that likes to glory in what our grandfathers did for Europe in the war, but think that the rest of Europe should be bloody thankful for ever more, and yet you don't want to share a quid with them today.

I couldn't give a toss what it looks like. The EU had a chance to keep us in but were not prepared to make any substantive reforms or concessions. For stepping up see sending more money to the EU so they can spend our money trying to contain problems caused by the EU. You would be wrong about my type then. I do not conflate Europe with the EU .. or hark back to the war but do look forward to working with our friends and partners across Europe on numerous issues in the coming years.

I have to hand it to you though on the way in which you claim you voted with "impeccable, logical/fact based reasoning" to share less with Europe, politically and economically, and think that you and I will benefit from that action, to the detriment of the EU, whilst pointing a finger at me and calling me selfish, for wanting to share more.

As I already explained it's not about 'sharing' (are we handing out sweeties?) it's about self governance and detaching ourselves from a failing, flawed Political project.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Fair point. The perils of posting after 2am after an enjoyable evening out .. my apologies.

I suspected you were under the influence when you posted that, like you were after last Saturday nights little insult at remainers.

I'll give you credit though mate, when I've had a skinful it's all I can do to post a YouTube video let alone type or not go totally random and off topic.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I suspected you were under the influence when you posted that, like you were after last Saturday nights little insult at reaminers.

I'll give you credit though mate, when I've had a skinful it's all I can do to post a YouTube video let alone type or not go totally random and off topic.

It's slightly worrying that I could type anything after last nights mix'n'match bingefest

 

[Soulman]

Around 3:40 is my favourite....